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A bug in the CLL? References: <8561d566-8f8b-4b46-9e7b-5fdbc1367b33@googlegroups.com> <1371405876.998.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5a62e3e4-6bad-47c1-b6ad-86639420b7aa@googlegroups.com> <34087CDB-5C29-47F5-9257-D02B91A2502F@yahoo.com> <5958d62e-ea83-400a-8936-1f57aa1580b4@googlegroups.com> <97A72722-A86B-4774-B5A2-187F9129388B@yahoo.com> <50799cc6-dd21-4c1b-9dfb-f4ce0928d0f3@googlegroups.com> <156ead61-3e49-444f-ba1a-c808839fd50d@googlegroups.com> <7E4B1F87-0D2C-4973-9A23-E03427E46515@yahoo.com> <5A6C07CB-C2CA-4A7A-9B4B-D5DAACA61069@yahoo.com> <42d6ef31-3311-4181-b1a9-468271e86ac4@googlegroups.com> <579FEEE0-567D-4896-8391-C68E99ADEFCC@yahoo.com> <042628dd-5308-4d8e-b09c-400c03d5a3f9@googlegroups.com> <08B4257D-2310-4955-B5D4-E8E1FD5D6A35@yahoo.com> <40015169-9cff-401d-bac3-24330b920b6c@googlegroups.com> <4a536dd1-b5e5-4363-aa77-e8aadd511d37@googlegroups.com> <82825fbe-d24f-4766-af88-55d8698fa945@googlegroups.com> From: "John E. Clifford" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B206) In-Reply-To: <82825fbe-d24f-4766-af88-55d8698fa945@googlegroups.com> Message-Id: Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 14:19:47 -0500 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.136.216.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-9C8E5E19-C3BC-4D88-8088-0A34A2C34E3E Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Spam_score: 1.0 X-Spam_score_int: 10 X-Spam_bar: + X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: It's bound by being first person, lo cusku be dei, etc. "We" is, of course, none of those Lojban things but covers an area into which all of them also fit. Where a given occurrence fits depends on context, but may not be exactly any of these. The {jo'u} formula is more nearly correct, if it is well formed. Shouldn't there be a set mentioned on both sides? [...] Content analysis details: (1.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: googlegroups.com] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (kali9putra[at]yahoo.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 'From' yahoo.com does not match 'Received' headers 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature --Apple-Mail-9C8E5E19-C3BC-4D88-8088-0A34A2C34E3E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 It's bound by being first person, lo cusku be dei, etc. "We" is, of course= , none of those Lojban things but covers an area into which all of them al= so fit. Where a given occurrence fits depends on context, but may not be e= xactly any of these. The {jo'u} formula is more nearly correct, if it is = well formed. Shouldn't there be a set mentioned on both sides? Sent from my iPad On Jun 20, 2013, at 12:53, la arxokuna wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Thursday, June 20, 2013 8:31:06 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 10:11 AM, la arxokuna wro= te: >=20 >=20 > On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:56:57 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: > I am assuming that person for Lojban is defined around {cusku}. People n= ot involved in the current utterance, either as intended source or intended= audience, are third person, by definition, again. A person doesn't have t= o be present to fill a first or second person role, doesn't even have to be= alive, apparently. >=20 > And "we" can include third persons not involved in the dialog. "We (that = guy over there and I) will do it". >=20 > mi'a >=20 >=20 > Exactly. va'i > English "we" is either {mi'a} or {mi'o} or {ma'a}. Or in other words {mi = jo'u mibdrata}. So why bind it only to the participants of the dialog? >=20 > =20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On Jun 20, 2013, at 8:47, la arxokuna wrote: >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:08:37 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >> An English uncertainty about just who cusku? We know the utterer is in; = who else depends on context. But, since this is a first person pronoun, th= ose others cusku this as well (definitional). >>=20 >> How can they cusku if they are not in this dialog? English "we" covers = {mi jo'u mibdrata}. >>=20 >>=20 >> Sent from my iPad >>=20 >> On Jun 20, 2013, at 7:48, la arxokuna wrote: >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 4:39:08 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>> So, {lo za'u cusku be dei }. {no'u} just sounds wrong;it is not an ide= ntity, merely a predication, probably {poi}. For the rest it is over speci= fication in that these other things may or may not be included. {lo} does = it's usual selection job in context. In particular, lo na'e cusku are not = to be included, by the nature of the gadri.=20 >>>=20 >>> Don't you think that your definition contradicts Wiktionary that says t= hat "we=3Dthe speaker and at least one other person" ? It is not said that = that other persons are to be viewed as speakers. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPad >>>=20 >>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 6:31, la arxokuna wrote: >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Thursday, June 20, 2013 3:16:50 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>>> I thought I just did.=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Where is {dei} in {lo za'u cusku}. Does "we" include only those who s= peak or those to whom something is spoken? No. >>>>=20 >>>> "we" is either {mi no'u za'umei} or {mi jo'u da poi prenu gi'e na'e cu= sku be dei gi'e na'e te cusku be dei} >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>=20 >>>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 0:47, la arxokuna wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:19:41 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>>>> Oops! I probably should have said {na'i} (false dichotomy) since "we= " is actually neither. It is, however, contextual, "the salient group of t= he speaker and associate(s)", exactly {lo za'u cusku}, I I think. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Do you think you can give a precise definition of {zo'oi we} in Lojba= n? >>>>> --=20 >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send = an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> =20 >>> =20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> =20 >> =20 >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > =20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > mu'o mi'e .aionys. >=20 > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > =20 > =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --Apple-Mail-9C8E5E19-C3BC-4D88-8088-0A34A2C34E3E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
It's bound by being first= person, lo cusku be dei, etc.  "We" is, of course, none of those Lojb= an  things but covers an area into which all of them also fit.  W= here a given occurrence fits depends on context, but may not be exactly any= of these.   The {jo'u} formula is more nearly correct, if it is well = formed.  Shouldn't there be a set mentioned on both sides?

Sent= from my iPad

On Jun 20, 2013, at 12:53, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>= ; wrote:



On = Thursday, June 20, 2013 8:31:06 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:


On Thu, Jun 20,= 2013 at 10:11 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmai= l.com> wrote:


On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:56:57 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
I am assuming that person for Lojban is defined around {cusku}.  Peopl= e not involved in the current utterance, either as intended source or inten= ded audience, are third person, by definition, again.  A person doesn'= t have to be present to fill a first or second person role, doesn't even ha= ve to be alive, apparently.

And "we" can include third per= sons not involved in the dialog. "We (that guy over there and I) will do it= ".

mi'a


Exactly. va'i
English "we" is either {mi'a= } or {mi'o} or {ma'a}. Or in other words {mi jo'u mibdrata}. So why bind it= only to the participants of the dialog?

 
=
 


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, 20= 13, at 8:47, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

<= br>
On Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:08:37 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
An English uncertainty about just who cusku? = We know the utterer is in; who else depends on context.  But, since th= is is a first person pronoun, those others cusku this as well (definitional= ).

How can they cusku if they are= not  in this dialog? English "we" covers {mi jo'u mibdrata}.


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20= , 2013, at 7:48, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Thursday, J= une 20, 2013 4:39:08 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
So, {lo za'u cusku be dei }.  {no'u} jus= t sounds wrong;it is not an identity, merely a predication, probably {poi}.=  For the rest it is over specification in that these other things may= or may not be included.  {lo} does it's usual selection job in contex= t.  In particular, lo na'e cusku are not to be included, by the nature= of the gadri. 

Don't you think that your definition= contradicts Wiktionary that says that "we=3Dthe speaker and at least one o= ther person" ? It is not said that that other persons are to be viewed as s= peakers.


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20, 2013, at 6:31, la = arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:



On Thursday, Ju= ne 20, 2013 3:16:50 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
I thought I just did. 


Where is {dei}  in {lo z= a'u cusku}. Does "we" include only those who speak or those to whom somethi= ng is spoken? No.

"we" is either {mi no'u za'umei} or {mi jo'u da poi pre= nu gi'e na'e cusku be dei gi'e na'e te cusku be dei}


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 20= , 2013, at 0:47, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Wednesday, = June 19, 2013 10:19:41 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
Oops!  I probably should have said {na'i= } (false dichotomy) since "we" is actually neither.  It is, however, c= ontextual, "the salient group of the speaker and associate(s)", exactly {lo= za'u cusku}, I I think.


Do you think yo= u can give a precise definition of {zo'oi we} in Lojban?

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--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

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Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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