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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 16:31:32 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkQ3D4FEBj2R2kB3ScfVgW8FechOz19zf_uVpWDXiLX1EQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] A bug in the CLL 7.6 example 6.14).
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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(pardon me for losing the cu/ku in my example, btw)
I stand corrected.
  --gejyspa


On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 4:04 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote=
:

> On 20 June 2013 11:58, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>   I believe in in none of those cases does nei or no'a "work".  I don't
>> consider that sei-se'u constructions can "see" the sentence they are
>> talking about it.  It would make about as much sense as:
>> lo mamta cusku lu vo'a nitcu lo nu klama lo zarci li'u
>> and claiming that "vo'a" refers to "lo mamta" (contrariwise, "lo mamta
>> cusku lo se du'u  vo'a nitcu lo nu klama lo zarci" does work)
>>               --gejyspa
>>
>>
>>
> CLL 19:12 contradicts you on this point:
>
> Since a discursive utterance is working at a =93higher=94 level of abstra=
ction
> than a non-discursive utterance, a non-discursive utterance cannot refer =
to
> a discursive utterance. Specifically, the various back-counting,
> reciprocal, and reflexive constructs in selma'o KOhA ignore the utterance=
s
> at =93higher=94 metalinguistic levels in determining their referent. It i=
s
> possible, and sometimes necessary, to refer to lower metalinguistic level=
s.
> For example, the English =93he said=94 in a conversation is metalinguisti=
c. For
> this purpose, quotations are considered to be at a lower metalinguistic
> level than the surrounding context (a quoted text cannot refer to the
> statements of the one who quotes it), whereas parenthetical remarks are
> considered to be at a higher level than the context.
>
> Thus, it is possible from within a "higher" context to refer to the
> contents of a "lower" context. This is why it is possible to refer to the
> contents of a lu-quote, but not for its contents to refer to the bridi in
> which that lu-quote is a sumti. Likewise, a sei-clause can use ri and oth=
er
> anaphoric devices to refer to what is outside it, because what is outside
> it is on a "lower" level.
>
> Metalinguistic "height" according to CLL:
> SEI..SEhU, TO..TOI > ordinary bridi > lu-quotes
>
> That being said, I say that {nei} used in a sei-clause refers to the brid=
i
> of the sei-clause. This is consistent with (almost) every other use of ne=
i.
> To refer to the bridi outside the sei-clause {no'a} is required.
>
> .i mi'e la tsnai mu'o
>
> --
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<div dir=3D"ltr">(pardon me for losing the cu/ku in my example, btw)<div st=
yle>I stand corrected.</div><div style>=A0 --gejyspa</div><div style><br></=
div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 4:04 PM, Jacob Errington <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:nictytan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">nictytan@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"im">On 20 Jun=
e 2013 11:58, Michael Turniansky <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mt=
urniansky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mturniansky@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>=
 wrote:<br>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"i=
m">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=A0 I believe in in none of those cases d=
oes nei or no&#39;a &quot;work&quot;. =A0I don&#39;t consider that sei-se&#=
39;u constructions can &quot;see&quot; the sentence they are talking about =
it. =A0It would make about as much sense as:<div>


lo mamta cusku lu vo&#39;a nitcu lo nu klama lo zarci li&#39;u=A0</div><div=
>and claiming that &quot;vo&#39;a&quot; refers to &quot;lo mamta&quot; (con=
trariwise, &quot;lo mamta cusku lo se du&#39;u =A0vo&#39;a nitcu lo nu klam=
a lo zarci&quot; does work)</div>


<div>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa</div><div><br></div></div><div><=
div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>=
</div></div><div>CLL 19:12 contradicts you on this point:</div><div><br>

</div><div><span style=3D"text-indent:16px;font-size:medium;font-family:san=
s-serif">Since a discursive utterance is working at a =93higher=94 level of=
 abstraction than a non-discursive utterance, a non-discursive utterance ca=
nnot refer to a discursive utterance. Specifically, the various back-counti=
ng, reciprocal, and reflexive constructs in selma&#39;o KOhA ignore the utt=
erances at =93higher=94 metalinguistic levels in determining their referent=
. It is possible, and sometimes necessary, to refer to lower metalinguistic=
 levels. For example, the English =93he said=94 in a conversation is metali=
nguistic. For this purpose, quotations are considered to be at a lower meta=
linguistic level than the surrounding context (a quoted text cannot refer t=
o the statements of the one who quotes it), whereas parenthetical remarks a=
re considered to be at a higher level than the context.</span></div>


<div><br></div><div>Thus, it is possible from within a &quot;higher&quot; c=
ontext to refer to the contents of a &quot;lower&quot; context. This is why=
 it is possible to refer to the contents of a lu-quote, but not for its con=
tents to refer to the bridi in which that lu-quote is a sumti. Likewise, a =
sei-clause can use ri and other anaphoric devices to refer to what is outsi=
de it, because what is outside it is on a &quot;lower&quot; level.</div>


<div><br></div><div>Metalinguistic &quot;height&quot; according to CLL:<br>=
SEI..SEhU, TO..TOI &gt; ordinary bridi &gt; lu-quotes</div><div><br></div><=
div>That being said, I say that {nei} used in a sei-clause refers to the br=
idi of the sei-clause. This is consistent with (almost) every other use of =
nei. To refer to the bridi outside the sei-clause {no&#39;a} is required.</=
div>


<div><br></div><div>.i mi&#39;e la tsnai mu&#39;o</div></div></div></div><d=
iv class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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=A0<br>
=A0<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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