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From: Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:11:53 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo}
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On 21 June 2013 08:49, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Friday, June 21, 2013 4:01:54 PM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>
>> When talking about a species, meaning all or typical members of the
>> species,
>> use "lo":
>> lo guakmaio be la blanu joi pelxu cu xabju lo ketco solni'atutra
>> The blue-and-gold macaw lives in tropical South America.
>> It is also correct to use "lo'e".
>>
>
> And again I can't see why can't we use {le} or {le'e}. You are talking
> about macaw living in America so you have them in mind although you might
> no necessarily saw them.
>
>

Yes, you have it in mind, but you need to ask yourself, "Am I thinking
about particular instances of {guakmaio}?" The answer in this case is no.
You're thinking about the archetypal macaw, which itself doesn't really
even exist.

The difference between {le} and {lo} is essentially specificity. The former
requires the speaker to have *particular instances of the described selbri*
in mind, whereas the latter makes no such promise. {lo} is agnostic about
specificity, which contributes to it being the never-wrong article that can
be used anywhere.

As for veridicality, enough UD messiness can permit either to be
nonveridical. I don't oppose someone being able to refer to the monopoly
car piece with {lo karce} (although I may have in the past) as the piece
satisfies some salient property of true karce, i.e. the piece looks like a
(very small) car, despite not being automotive. Part of the rationale
behind that is that in the "monopoly UD", the pieces do actually satisfy
those properties.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On 21 June 2013 08:49, la arxokuna <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.=
name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><br><br>On Friday, June 21=
, 2013 4:01:54 PM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:</div><div class=3D"im"><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

When talking about a species, meaning all or typical members of the species=
,=20
<br>use &quot;lo&quot;:
<br>lo guakmaio be la blanu joi pelxu cu xabju lo ketco solni&#39;atutra
<br>The blue-and-gold macaw lives in tropical South America.
<br>It is also correct to use &quot;lo&#39;e&quot;.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>And again I can&#39;t see why ca=
n&#39;t we use {le} or {le&#39;e}. You are talking about macaw living in Am=
erica so you have them in mind although you might no necessarily saw them.<=
/div>

<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div>=A0</div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>Yes, you have it in mind, but you need to ask yours=
elf, &quot;Am I thinking about particular instances of {guakmaio}?&quot; Th=
e answer in this case is no. You&#39;re thinking about the archetypal macaw=
, which itself doesn&#39;t really even exist.=A0</div>

<div><br></div><div>The difference between {le} and {lo} is essentially spe=
cificity. The former requires the speaker to have *particular instances of =
the described selbri* in mind, whereas the latter makes no such promise. {l=
o} is agnostic about specificity, which contributes to it being the never-w=
rong article that can be used anywhere.</div>

<div><br></div><div>As for veridicality, enough UD messiness can permit eit=
her to be nonveridical. I don&#39;t oppose someone being able to refer to t=
he monopoly car piece with {lo karce} (although I may have in the past) as =
the piece satisfies some salient property of true karce, i.e. the piece loo=
ks like a (very small) car, despite not being automotive. Part of the ratio=
nale behind that is that in the &quot;monopoly UD&quot;, the pieces do actu=
ally satisfy those properties.</div>

<div><br></div><div>.i mi&#39;e la tsani mu&#39;o</div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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