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Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo}
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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 11:19:29 -0500
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 Content preview:  Not sure what a nonspecific object would be, sounds like a
    "myopic singulars" or some such. The 99% applies to {lo} as well, of course,
    since, aside from math and other branches of philosophy, there isn't much
    else to talk about ("real" is maybe problematic, since it gets mixed in with
    "existent", which may not be relevant in a given conversation). [...] 
 
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Not sure what a nonspecific object would be, sounds like a "myopic singular=
s" or some such.  The 99% applies to {lo} as well, of course, since, aside =
from math and other branches of philosophy, there isn't much else to talk a=
bout ("real" is maybe problematic, since it gets mixed in with "existent", =
which may not be relevant in a given conversation).

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 21, 2013, at 8:15, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

>=20
>=20
> On Friday, June 21, 2013 5:11:53 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
> On 21 June 2013 08:49, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Friday, June 21, 2013 4:01:54 PM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> When talking about a species, meaning all or typical members of the speci=
es,=20
> use "lo":=20
> lo guakmaio be la blanu joi pelxu cu xabju lo ketco solni'atutra=20
> The blue-and-gold macaw lives in tropical South America.=20
> It is also correct to use "lo'e".=20
>=20
> And again I can't see why can't we use {le} or {le'e}. You are talking ab=
out macaw living in America so you have them in mind although you might no =
necessarily saw them.
> =20
>=20
> Yes, you have it in mind, but you need to ask yourself, "Am I thinking ab=
out particular instances of {guakmaio}?" The answer in this case is no. You=
're thinking about the archetypal macaw, which itself doesn't really even e=
xist.=20
>=20
> The difference between {le} and {lo} is essentially specificity. The form=
er requires the speaker to have *particular instances of the described selb=
ri* in mind, whereas the latter makes no such promise. {lo} is agnostic abo=
ut specificity, which contributes to it being the never-wrong article that =
can be used anywhere.
>=20
>=20
> I guess in 99% of cases {le} denotes real objects endured in time and spa=
ce.
> It's a pity we don't have anti-{le} to explicitly refer to non-specific o=
bjects. Do we?
>=20
>=20
> As for veridicality, enough UD messiness can permit either to be nonverid=
ical. I don't oppose someone being able to refer to the monopoly car piece =
with {lo karce} (although I may have in the past) as the piece satisfies so=
me salient property of true karce, i.e. the piece looks like a (very small)=
 car, despite not being automotive. Part of the rationale behind that is th=
at in the "monopoly UD", the pieces do actually satisfy those properties.
>=20
> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o
> --=20
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 "lojban" group.
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 email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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> =20
> =20

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<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Not sure what a nonspecif=
ic object would be, sounds like a "myopic singulars" or some such. &nbsp;Th=
e 99% applies to {lo} as well, of course, since, aside from math and other =
branches of philosophy, there isn't much else to talk about ("real" is mayb=
e problematic, since it gets mixed in with "existent", which may not be rel=
evant in a given conversation).<br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On J=
un 21, 2013, at 8:15, la arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gm=
ail.com">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div></div>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br><br>On Friday, June 21, 2013 5:11:53 PM =
UTC+4, tsani wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;mar=
gin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D=
"ltr">On 21 June 2013 08:49, la arxokuna <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"j=
avascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"wfXqWaWpMQIJ">gleki.=
is...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><br><br>On Friday, June 21, 2013 4:01:5=
4 PM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:</div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex">

When talking about a species, meaning all or typical members of the species=
,=20
<br>use "lo":
<br>lo guakmaio be la blanu joi pelxu cu xabju lo ketco solni'atutra
<br>The blue-and-gold macaw lives in tropical South America.
<br>It is also correct to use "lo'e".
<br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>And again I can't see why can't =
we use {le} or {le'e}. You are talking about macaw living in America so you=
 have them in mind although you might no necessarily saw them.</div>

<div><div><div>&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes=
, you have it in mind, but you need to ask yourself, "Am I thinking about p=
articular instances of {guakmaio}?" The answer in this case is no. You're t=
hinking about the archetypal macaw, which itself doesn't really even exist.=
&nbsp;</div>

<div><br></div><div>The difference between {le} and {lo} is essentially spe=
cificity. The former requires the speaker to have *particular instances of =
the described selbri* in mind, whereas the latter makes no such promise. {l=
o} is agnostic about specificity, which contributes to it being the never-w=
rong article that can be used anywhere.</div>

<div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I guess i=
n 99% of cases {le} denotes real objects endured in time and space.</div><d=
iv>It's a pity we don't have anti-{le} to explicitly refer to non-specific =
objects. Do we?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=
</div><div>As for veridicality, enough UD messiness can permit either to be=
 nonveridical. I don't oppose someone being able to refer to the monopoly c=
ar piece with {lo karce} (although I may have in the past) as the piece sat=
isfies some salient property of true karce, i.e. the piece looks like a (ve=
ry small) car, despite not being automotive. Part of the rationale behind t=
hat is that in the "monopoly UD", the pieces do actually satisfy those prop=
erties.</div>

<div><br></div><div>.i mi'e la tsani mu'o</div></div></div></div>
</blockquote>

<p></p>

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&nbsp;<br>
</div></blockquote></body></html>

<p></p>

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