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Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo}
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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 11:26:14 -0500
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 Content preview:  Well, there might be more than one instance, but then you
   need the several in mind. Talking about archetypes leads into dangerous territory;
    best just talk about the lot of them and their habits. Messing with UDs overtly
    in a dialog is again a place to get into deep do-do; best to just allow unmarked
    analogical usage. [...] 
 
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Well, there might be more than one instance, but then you need the several =
in mind.   Talking about archetypes leads into dangerous territory;  best j=
ust talk about the lot of them and their habits.  Messing with UDs overtly =
in a dialog is again a place to get into deep do-do; best to just allow unm=
arked analogical usage.

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 21, 2013, at 8:11, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 21 June 2013 08:49, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Friday, June 21, 2013 4:01:54 PM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> When talking about a species, meaning all or typical members of the speci=
es,=20
> use "lo":=20
> lo guakmaio be la blanu joi pelxu cu xabju lo ketco solni'atutra=20
> The blue-and-gold macaw lives in tropical South America.=20
> It is also correct to use "lo'e".=20
>=20
> And again I can't see why can't we use {le} or {le'e}. You are talking ab=
out macaw living in America so you have them in mind although you might no =
necessarily saw them.
> =20
>=20
> Yes, you have it in mind, but you need to ask yourself, "Am I thinking ab=
out particular instances of {guakmaio}?" The answer in this case is no. You=
're thinking about the archetypal macaw, which itself doesn't really even e=
xist.=20
>=20
> The difference between {le} and {lo} is essentially specificity. The form=
er requires the speaker to have *particular instances of the described selb=
ri* in mind, whereas the latter makes no such promise. {lo} is agnostic abo=
ut specificity, which contributes to it being the never-wrong article that =
can be used anywhere.
>=20
> As for veridicality, enough UD messiness can permit either to be nonverid=
ical. I don't oppose someone being able to refer to the monopoly car piece =
with {lo karce} (although I may have in the past) as the piece satisfies so=
me salient property of true karce, i.e. the piece looks like a (very small)=
 car, despite not being automotive. Part of the rationale behind that is th=
at in the "monopoly UD", the pieces do actually satisfy those properties.
>=20
> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o
> --=20
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 "lojban" group.
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 email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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> =20
> =20

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<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Well, there might be more=
 than one instance, but then you need the several in mind. &nbsp; Talking a=
bout archetypes leads into dangerous territory; &nbsp;best just talk about =
the lot of them and their habits. &nbsp;Messing with UDs overtly in a dialo=
g is again a place to get into deep do-do; best to just allow unmarked anal=
ogical usage.<br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Jun 21, 2013, at 8:=
11, Jacob Errington &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nictytan@gmail.com">nictytan@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div=
><div dir=3D"ltr">On 21 June 2013 08:49, la arxokuna <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my=
.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><br><br>On Friday, June 21=
, 2013 4:01:54 PM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:</div><div class=3D"im"><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

When talking about a species, meaning all or typical members of the species=
,=20
<br>use "lo":
<br>lo guakmaio be la blanu joi pelxu cu xabju lo ketco solni'atutra
<br>The blue-and-gold macaw lives in tropical South America.
<br>It is also correct to use "lo'e".
<br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>And again I can't see why can't =
we use {le} or {le'e}. You are talking about macaw living in America so you=
 have them in mind although you might no necessarily saw them.</div>

<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div>&nbsp;</div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, you have it in mind, but you need to ask yo=
urself, "Am I thinking about particular instances of {guakmaio}?" The answe=
r in this case is no. You're thinking about the archetypal macaw, which its=
elf doesn't really even exist.&nbsp;</div>

<div><br></div><div>The difference between {le} and {lo} is essentially spe=
cificity. The former requires the speaker to have *particular instances of =
the described selbri* in mind, whereas the latter makes no such promise. {l=
o} is agnostic about specificity, which contributes to it being the never-w=
rong article that can be used anywhere.</div>

<div><br></div><div>As for veridicality, enough UD messiness can permit eit=
her to be nonveridical. I don't oppose someone being able to refer to the m=
onopoly car piece with {lo karce} (although I may have in the past) as the =
piece satisfies some salient property of true karce, i.e. the piece looks l=
ike a (very small) car, despite not being automotive. Part of the rationale=
 behind that is that in the "monopoly UD", the pieces do actually satisfy t=
hose properties.</div>

<div><br></div><div>.i mi'e la tsani mu'o</div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div></blockquote></body></html>

<p></p>

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