Received: from mail-pb0-f59.google.com ([209.85.160.59]:45918) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Uq4Bh-00075n-FY for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:28:10 -0700 Received: by mail-pb0-f59.google.com with SMTP id rq2sf2593243pbb.14 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:27:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Uq5/GiIM+f15xvtZRQoJap3Y8hY4w6upr/QYdV48Nfc=; b=VhRQOmdSiDyelm4NHTwaskFdlAOH7QgsZb1xDzrUL8+MDPp2FjiMkqxXqGB87qH/JT ox9DqX3dpKHjyJZDlCpzfPxJ7eqFHUNqbCDY+XUaoAcsvosVIuW2TE629cu74z8FOgFf wbV5mAZKnbDshAWNqJWdasMqeu2BG/V0GAEM+pfN+YLbL+84sN5oc8Bx+jJddZqzJkRh IIvHCE9DGkB/Zr8CCgSqsSI/+OMG8O8oVhAZtaaM8mVfYVZti54g6bhdrtw+qdxVPe3J UjVwMzy3+WDdhN/PU/scpKlBPFrYcqNRD9y5aha10oEqVqCAjmGsHwsx3zoJEfdLSbxx f+4A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Uq5/GiIM+f15xvtZRQoJap3Y8hY4w6upr/QYdV48Nfc=; b=gTiKFtwUJF18+uVCb6ELikfVWK8FEm720HiQlG0BGuUxS8sjbAHQkNQi2bTRMx6/yF WoFvn9mMBCUWP33c/PYlL/L2bsSVuECve6wPotbZ9Eq7FzLuhlPxD8Y6Nwl9k5xh5G/T hXDMsFiWklZQVSsgFKo/YtlN0gO4lDfm4PryEvTdBuJ7yvre1uwEuXaykp0tmdeGLhNT 7aplTxi7pBk39QwwYF1FOnInrdcQ7jV2iS7xKw5j8HFozafc6EsQbLkc6nkzr1hiXh7u yAtRB5oZ9TeQJL6m6fwKfzVcQmPUfrsqfZjnnhbRTyds0RkNQbvj0OIy6nLrmsvjgTp7 DfbA== X-Received: by 10.49.97.34 with SMTP id dx2mr318698qeb.42.1371832062041; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:27:42 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.51.129 with SMTP id k1ls1118878qeo.47.gmail; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:27:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.62.3 with SMTP id u3mr306758qer.26.1371832061557; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:27:41 -0700 (PDT) From: la arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <4062b116-0704-4437-abf3-6793667eccd8@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <7543006.QVFjYzoatX@caracal> <933d80e7-2502-4e29-a9c2-2d44fad740f2@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo} MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1_14856464.1371832061128" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_1_14856464.1371832061128 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Friday, June 21, 2013 8:19:29 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: > > Not sure what a nonspecific object would be, sounds like a "myopic > singulars" or some such. > Please give a link to the explanation of what "myopic singulars" are. I have no clue, sorry. The 99% applies to {lo} as well, of course, since, aside from math and > other branches of philosophy, there isn't much else to talk about ("real" > is maybe problematic, since it gets mixed in with "existent", which may not > be relevant in a given conversation). > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jun 21, 2013, at 8:15, la arxokuna > > wrote: > > > > On Friday, June 21, 2013 5:11:53 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote: >> >> On 21 June 2013 08:49, la arxokuna wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Friday, June 21, 2013 4:01:54 PM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote: >>> >>>> When talking about a species, meaning all or typical members of the >>>> species, >>>> use "lo": >>>> lo guakmaio be la blanu joi pelxu cu xabju lo ketco solni'atutra >>>> The blue-and-gold macaw lives in tropical South America. >>>> It is also correct to use "lo'e". >>>> >>> >>> And again I can't see why can't we use {le} or {le'e}. You are talking >>> about macaw living in America so you have them in mind although you might >>> no necessarily saw them. >>> >>> >> >> Yes, you have it in mind, but you need to ask yourself, "Am I thinking >> about particular instances of {guakmaio}?" The answer in this case is no. >> You're thinking about the archetypal macaw, which itself doesn't really >> even exist. >> >> The difference between {le} and {lo} is essentially specificity. The >> former requires the speaker to have *particular instances of the described >> selbri* in mind, whereas the latter makes no such promise. {lo} is agnostic >> about specificity, which contributes to it being the never-wrong article >> that can be used anywhere. >> >> > I guess in 99% of cases {le} denotes real objects endured in time and > space. > It's a pity we don't have anti-{le} to explicitly refer to non-specific > objects. Do we? > > > As for veridicality, enough UD messiness can permit either to be >> nonveridical. I don't oppose someone being able to refer to the monopoly >> car piece with {lo karce} (although I may have in the past) as the piece >> satisfies some salient property of true karce, i.e. the piece looks like a >> (very small) car, despite not being automotive. Part of the rationale >> behind that is that in the "monopoly UD", the pieces do actually satisfy >> those properties. >> >> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_1_14856464.1371832061128 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Friday, June 21, 2013 8:19:29 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
Not sure = what a nonspecific object would be, sounds like a "myopic singulars" or som= e such.

Please give a link to t= he explanation of what "myopic singulars" are. I have no clue, sorry.

 The 99% applies to {lo} as well, of course, since= , aside from math and other branches of philosophy, there isn't much else t= o talk about ("real" is maybe problematic, since it gets mixed in with "exi= stent", which may not be relevant in a given conversation).

Sent fro= m my iPad

On Jun 21, 2013, at 8:15, la arxokuna <g= leki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:



On Friday, June 21, 2013 5:11:53 PM UTC+4, tsani wr= ote:
On 21 June 201= 3 08:49, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com>= wrote:


On Friday, June 21, 2013 4:01:5= 4 PM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
When talking about a species, meaning all or typical members of the species= ,=20
use "lo":
lo guakmaio be la blanu joi pelxu cu xabju lo ketco solni'atutra
The blue-and-gold macaw lives in tropical South America.
It is also correct to use "lo'e".

And again I can't see why can't = we use {le} or {le'e}. You are talking about macaw living in America so you= have them in mind although you might no necessarily saw them.
 

Yes= , you have it in mind, but you need to ask yourself, "Am I thinking about p= articular instances of {guakmaio}?" The answer in this case is no. You're t= hinking about the archetypal macaw, which itself doesn't really even exist.=  

The difference between {le} and {lo} is essentially spe= cificity. The former requires the speaker to have *particular instances of = the described selbri* in mind, whereas the latter makes no such promise. {l= o} is agnostic about specificity, which contributes to it being the never-w= rong article that can be used anywhere.


I guess i= n 99% of cases {le} denotes real objects endured in time and space.
It's a pity we don't have anti-{le} to explicitly refer to non-specific = objects. Do we?


As for veridicality, enough UD messiness can permit either to be nonv= eridical. I don't oppose someone being able to refer to the monopoly car pi= ece with {lo karce} (although I may have in the past) as the piece satisfie= s some salient property of true karce, i.e. the piece looks like a (very sm= all) car, despite not being automotive. Part of the rationale behind that i= s that in the "monopoly UD", the pieces do actually satisfy those propertie= s.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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