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Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo}
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From: "John E. Clifford" <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 13:04:41 -0500
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 Content preview:  Sorry, I can't help much. They come up in discussions about
    the meaning of {lo}, at least prexorlo, as all of some kind of thing viewed
    myopically so all the peculiarities disappear and only the commonalities
   are visible. You can see the similarity to nonspecific objects. [...] 
 
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Sorry, I can't help much.  They come up in discussions about the meaning of=
 {lo}, at least prexorlo, as all of some kind of thing viewed myopically so=
 all the peculiarities disappear and only the commonalities are visible. Yo=
u can see the similarity to nonspecific objects. =20

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 21, 2013, at 11:27, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

>=20
>=20
> On Friday, June 21, 2013 8:19:29 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
> Not sure what a nonspecific object would be, sounds like a "myopic singul=
ars" or some such.
>=20
> Please give a link to the explanation of what "myopic singulars" are. I h=
ave no clue, sorry.
>=20
>  The 99% applies to {lo} as well, of course, since, aside from math and o=
ther branches of philosophy, there isn't much else to talk about ("real" is=
 maybe problematic, since it gets mixed in with "existent", which may not b=
e relevant in a given conversation).
>=20
> Sent from my iPad
>=20
> On Jun 21, 2013, at 8:15, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Friday, June 21, 2013 5:11:53 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
>> On 21 June 2013 08:49, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Friday, June 21, 2013 4:01:54 PM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>> When talking about a species, meaning all or typical members of the spec=
ies,=20
>> use "lo":=20
>> lo guakmaio be la blanu joi pelxu cu xabju lo ketco solni'atutra=20
>> The blue-and-gold macaw lives in tropical South America.=20
>> It is also correct to use "lo'e".=20
>>=20
>> And again I can't see why can't we use {le} or {le'e}. You are talking a=
bout macaw living in America so you have them in mind although you might no=
 necessarily saw them.
>> =20
>>=20
>> Yes, you have it in mind, but you need to ask yourself, "Am I thinking a=
bout particular instances of {guakmaio}?" The answer in this case is no. Yo=
u're thinking about the archetypal macaw, which itself doesn't really even =
exist.=20
>>=20
>> The difference between {le} and {lo} is essentially specificity. The for=
mer requires the speaker to have *particular instances of the described sel=
bri* in mind, whereas the latter makes no such promise. {lo} is agnostic ab=
out specificity, which contributes to it being the never-wrong article that=
 can be used anywhere.
>>=20
>>=20
>> I guess in 99% of cases {le} denotes real objects endured in time and sp=
ace.
>> It's a pity we don't have anti-{le} to explicitly refer to non-specific =
objects. Do we?
>>=20
>>=20
>> As for veridicality, enough UD messiness can permit either to be nonveri=
dical. I don't oppose someone being able to refer to the monopoly car piece=
 with {lo karce} (although I may have in the past) as the piece satisfies s=
ome salient property of true karce, i.e. the piece looks like a (very small=
) car, despite not being automotive. Part of the rationale behind that is t=
hat in the "monopoly UD", the pieces do actually satisfy those properties.
>>=20
>> .i mi'e la tsani mu'o
>> --=20
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s "lojban" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a=
n email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
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>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>> =20
>> =20
>=20
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an=
 email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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> =20
> =20

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<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Sorry, I can't help much.=
 &nbsp;They come up in discussions about the meaning of {lo}, at least prex=
orlo, as all of some kind of thing viewed myopically so all the peculiariti=
es disappear and only the commonalities are visible. You can see the simila=
rity to nonspecific objects. &nbsp;</div><div><br>Sent from my iPad</div><d=
iv><br>On Jun 21, 2013, at 11:27, la arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.i=
s.my.name@gmail.com">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div=
><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br><br>On Friday, June 21, 2013=
 8:19:29 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: =
1ex;"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Not sure what a nonspecific object woul=
d be, sounds like a "myopic singulars" or some such.</div></div></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>Please give a link to the explanation of what "myopic=
 singulars" are. I have no clue, sorry.<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div> &nbsp;The =
99% applies to {lo} as well, of course, since, aside from math and other br=
anches of philosophy, there isn't much else to talk about ("real" is maybe =
problematic, since it gets mixed in with "existent", which may not be relev=
ant in a given conversation).<br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Jun=
 21, 2013, at 8:15, la arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blan=
k" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"TI1xaep0vrwJ">gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br><br>On Frida=
y, June 21, 2013 5:11:53 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;paddin=
g-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">On 21 June 2013 08:49, la arxokuna <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><br><br>On Friday, June 21, 2013 4:01:5=
4 PM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:</div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex">

When talking about a species, meaning all or typical members of the species=
,=20
<br>use "lo":
<br>lo guakmaio be la blanu joi pelxu cu xabju lo ketco solni'atutra
<br>The blue-and-gold macaw lives in tropical South America.
<br>It is also correct to use "lo'e".
<br></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>And again I can't see why can't =
we use {le} or {le'e}. You are talking about macaw living in America so you=
 have them in mind although you might no necessarily saw them.</div>

<div><div><div>&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes=
, you have it in mind, but you need to ask yourself, "Am I thinking about p=
articular instances of {guakmaio}?" The answer in this case is no. You're t=
hinking about the archetypal macaw, which itself doesn't really even exist.=
&nbsp;</div>

<div><br></div><div>The difference between {le} and {lo} is essentially spe=
cificity. The former requires the speaker to have *particular instances of =
the described selbri* in mind, whereas the latter makes no such promise. {l=
o} is agnostic about specificity, which contributes to it being the never-w=
rong article that can be used anywhere.</div>

<div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I guess i=
n 99% of cases {le} denotes real objects endured in time and space.</div><d=
iv>It's a pity we don't have anti-{le} to explicitly refer to non-specific =
objects. Do we?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div=
><div>As for veridicality, enough UD messiness can permit either to be nonv=
eridical. I don't oppose someone being able to refer to the monopoly car pi=
ece with {lo karce} (although I may have in the past) as the piece satisfie=
s some salient property of true karce, i.e. the piece looks like a (very sm=
all) car, despite not being automotive. Part of the rationale behind that i=
s that in the "monopoly UD", the pieces do actually satisfy those propertie=
s.</div>

<div><br></div><div>.i mi'e la tsani mu'o</div></div></div></div>
</blockquote>

<p></p>

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&nbsp;<br>
</div></blockquote></div></blockquote>

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</div></blockquote></body></html>

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