Received: from mail-ee0-f57.google.com ([74.125.83.57]:48453) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UqBbV-0001Pm-Ew for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 17:23:12 -0700 Received: by mail-ee0-f57.google.com with SMTP id t10sf1474169eei.12 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 17:22:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=4Aw1X2Ue0AagDDW4SSpO3bqHQIHgIWrKD8EZAWfijps=; b=uG0sHXnNn3GReo/c3Zp/o/AxtGwn6SuR5lvP3QjECX3Lr75jZEsU3aNzAXWqgXILT5 QUut0iEzvZSPoUtlCBOwAIz/rSXGhomBf2P0sRzyS0v5zgUOUsKdk1rIV1xhKQc1lOq8 slN7BtWXwUQ9f/hrmdcACtvkgKVmot/6ygJzqKesOaIXHD+AIemM9TJ8tLh+l5/0G5ii /hRzBfHDP/imsggOD7xQNM9NVZSi14MxVd2k4a4wPDA2Tj2OQD9WssfPuA5zttTIyBkc KzsF8eZpn78D2VJl4djzNjJR1+PLepUWPD7q0vDeUukV6XcvmX1klne/OfSEgs0fxPDK zhDw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=4Aw1X2Ue0AagDDW4SSpO3bqHQIHgIWrKD8EZAWfijps=; b=tRa+f7PFTtonPWBW7OwwfONIbtLuHDsHci62qRpBOKSYR48NSsAr3UNFZRd8Z1JTDV FHQTjPbHnxDYEXjfI838kDSuHwrrsIHhDWJqjVxOHxy21oSugr5cQuCy2URTEEcA9Z0T UJWkYIDkJiyvqp+rWm0pTPZFixABs/a/8Nh9Jsm1FE675QGAhdJuvB7JJRgTnATNPWoj 4oEa999DynFihaIBYDznMYXv3NzuSHRafg/ycmgjNjxRb0gFu+Iq3HFe88NWeckFbxMU UgqIx2v5ZrazOUBkdb9xzw9HV7iYRM+xj83uY6mxODUqKCW59MZ+KV5pLew7TcBCbc4g NEzQ== X-Received: by 10.181.12.19 with SMTP id em19mr17759wid.13.1371860569713; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 17:22:49 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.97.10 with SMTP id dw10ls444398wib.8.canary; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 17:22:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.204.183.196 with SMTP id ch4mr1723787bkb.7.1371860569230; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 17:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x236.google.com (mail-la0-x236.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c03::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id rl1si382835bkb.3.2013.06.21.17.22.49 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 21 Jun 2013 17:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c03::236; Received: by mail-la0-f54.google.com with SMTP id ec20so8115772lab.13 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 17:22:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.140.231 with SMTP id rj7mr8785391lbb.16.1371860568856; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 17:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.92.211 with HTTP; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 17:22:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5d7f238f-ff93-40ab-af24-fc6320d91b23@googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 18:22:48 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo} From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c26a30e35e3004dfb32d39 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11c26a30e35e3004dfb32d39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 4:51 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <= volishavas@gmail.com>wrote: > I don't worry just about the case. But I want to know precise distinction > between using {le} and {lo}. Yes, I'm Russian, but it doesn't mean anythi= ng > in the way of Lojban. > > From http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri I understood {lo} > is anything, and {le} is {lo} that I have in my mind in the moment of > speaking. For example, > > mi ba terve'u lo karce - cuz right now I don't have in my mind image of m= y > future car I'll want, but > mi ca ca'a ponse le karce > > And if you're going to say that using {mi ca ca'a ponse lo karce} is > perfectly well, then I might ask why even {le} exists in Lojban. > {lo} can have a specific reference, but doesn't need to. Whatever is referenced with {lo} must be something that satisfies the x1 of the internal selbri. {le} must always have a specific reference. Whatever is referenced with {le} can satisfy the x1 of the internal selbri, but doesn't have to. You can't call a dog that looks very bear-like {lo cribe}, but you can call it {le cribe}. The difference is that {lo} means it /actually is/ whatever you're calling it. {lo karce} is actually a car, {lo cribe} actually is a bear, while {le} merely means that you are describing a specific thing as that, whether or not it actually is. If you don't know if someone is a man or a woman, you can call that person {le ninmu} even if it turns out that's a man, but you can't call that person {lo ninmu}. (For anyone who's seen old SNL, Pat is a great example of this.) > =D3=D5=C2=C2=CF=D4=C1, 22 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:54:34 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC= =D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >> >> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 2:04 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5= =D7 wrote: >> >>> Hi! If I want to say "I have a car. The car is white.": >>> (I'm interested only in differences between {le} and {lo}.) >>> 1. with {le}: mi ponse le karce .i le karce cu blabi >>> 2. with {lo}: mi ponse lo karce .i lo karce cu blabi >>> I think the first choice is better. Am I right? >>> >> >> Let me put it this way: You're not wrong. It's perfectly fine to use {le= } >> instead of {lo}, but I wouldn't myself say it's better to. I also wouldn= 't >> say it's worse to. >> >> As long as the thing you're talking about can be the x1 of whatever >> you're using to describe it (i.e. something you are calling {lo ve klama= } >> must be a means of transportation), {lo} is never wrong, so when in doub= t, >> use {lo}. >> >> >>> =D0=D1=D4=CE=C9=C3=C1, 21 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 17:26:12 UTC+6 =D0=CF= =CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 .arpis. =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>>> >>>> {le} is what you say when you have a particular thing in mind or when >>>> you want to indicate that the thing you're talking about isn't necessa= rily >>>> a {broda}; {lo} is what you say whenever you don't want to indicate th= e >>>> previous fact. Most people use {le} for "the", but I think this is mal= gli. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 5:29 AM, la arxokuna wr= ote: >>>> >>>>> mi'a got a request to explain the difference between {lo} and {le} >>>>> with good examples from English. The person who is asking for that is= not >>>>> satisfied with what is described in BPFK sections of lojban.org. >>>>> Please help. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d >>>>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out<= https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Alex R >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --001a11c26a30e35e3004dfb32d39 Content-Type: text/html; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 4:51 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF= =CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volishavas@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't worry just about the case. But I want to know precise distincti= on between using {le} and {lo}. Yes, I'm Russian, but it doesn't me= an anything in the way of Lojban.

From http://www.lojban.org/tik= i/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri I understood {lo} is anything, and {le} is {lo}= that I have in my mind in the moment of speaking. For example,

mi ba terve'u lo karce - cuz right now I don't have in my mind = image of my future car I'll want, but
mi ca ca'a ponse le karce<= br>
And if you're going to say that using {mi ca ca'a ponse lo k= arce} is perfectly well, then I might ask why even {le} exists in Lojban.

{lo} can have a specific reference, but doesn't n= eed to. Whatever is=20 referenced with {lo} must be something that satisfies the x1 of the=20 internal selbri.

{le} must always have a specific reference.=20 Whatever is referenced with {le} can satisfy the x1 of the internal=20 selbri, but doesn't have to.


You can't call a dog that l= ooks very bear-like {lo cribe}, but you can call it {le cribe}.

The = difference is that {lo} means it /actually is/ whatever you're calling = it. {lo karce} is actually a car, {lo cribe} actually is a bear, while {le}= merely means that you are describing a specific thing as that, whether or = not it actually is.

If you don't know if someone is a man or a woman, you can call that= person {le ninmu} even if it turns out that's a man, but you can't= call that person {lo ninmu}. (For anyone who's seen old SNL, Pat is a = great example of this.)

=9A
=D3=D5=C2=C2=CF=D4=C1, 22 =C9= =C0=CE=D1 2013=9A=C7., 3:54:34 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 a= ionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 2= :04 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <v= olis...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi! If I want to say "I have a car. The car is white.":
(I'= ;m interested only in differences between {le} and {lo}.)
1. with {le}: = mi ponse le karce .i le karce cu blabi
2. with {lo}: mi ponse lo karce .= i lo karce cu blabi
I think the first choice is better. Am I right?

Le= t me put it this way: You're not wrong. It's perfectly fine to use = {le} instead of {lo}, but I wouldn't myself say it's better to. I a= lso wouldn't say it's worse to.

As long as the thing you're talking about can be the x1 of whatever= you're using to describe it (i.e. something you are calling {lo ve kla= ma} must be a means of transportation), {lo} is never wrong, so when in dou= bt, use {lo}.
=9A
=D0=D1=D4=CE=C9=C3=C1, 21 =C9=C0=CE= =D1 2013=9A=C7., 17:26:12 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 .arpis= . =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
{le} is what you say when you have a particular thing= in mind or when you want to indicate that the thing you're talking abo= ut isn't necessarily a {broda}; {lo} is what you say whenever you don&#= 39;t want to indicate the previous fact. Most people use {le} for "the= ", but I think this is malgli.



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima= lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot = Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
=9A
=9A



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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