Received: from mail-we0-f187.google.com ([74.125.82.187]:44429) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UqNEu-0004IE-M2 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 05:48:34 -0700 Received: by mail-we0-f187.google.com with SMTP id p58sf1710446wes.4 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 05:48:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=uTmPNA8NCTrVnEQA5Gbnf4t/homuF2BLVxuU1IxLUDs=; b=sKZxsOtQ3pnT/wxPf3y2dSAdHPcKp4jYZ0hw9LqM1mS7CLBgbEAt/xkgYKE0wFD+6n YLDzrxBJPnTRKJzdzABwG8KStyT0zFz+PUlB0ApIMbgfpbhXF+KQcpIipdUa8pJiL/D0 42t+LFyD+wlwCq7HjccSv0O+JOrflleom+psN54VZ5A/bADdAwkL5i7mxnyuLjSwZITU lhS7kmwP6/oqDb7r06L0BJ3G266aiN5cmrvBdXlYUD8BiNYflstAU7cEhwC2Xe7yv1vY MUSdytLr9sFs60qv1E0tQpk7zAg5Nma4MNOdTpaZsOAKwp5l+YwnmjFVkkmIDEKFC7Jx Dvuw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=uTmPNA8NCTrVnEQA5Gbnf4t/homuF2BLVxuU1IxLUDs=; b=RKY44RMfYg21tUIwkJZDEszvutgvAxgUyVVLwSJmJlutVruou+hJyoYn+JdAiBhHY3 5wVE5avHVEBwcS7QOO+5e4GdsG/71YMC/TJjE4Pw6nz+oakzX19m5/KFCzXFuNN7esdm plJFChcE5s+bJvZfjwXIleLd/UHWchfCiGkPgzfgmjNZO+EJG6aWYtL30mb+SE3ZWrHT 8+5/hXqN0oFBs/cpag0jSo0t8kBhP4y7JkUr4tn0bx+SYhy2fZBeFqKPdvgNBoN4Y7Kj s0LZlit8hXcAPYo2wxIaqftqHMzFNmUEf9LTuoMq63njXSWIaZzNv5XYd8X/RdMYkx6I rWYg== X-Received: by 10.180.90.134 with SMTP id bw6mr71596wib.8.1371905296480; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 05:48:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.95.66 with SMTP id di2ls504034wib.1.gmail; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 05:48:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.36.211 with SMTP id s19mr1656528wij.1.1371905295921; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 05:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x236.google.com (mail-ve0-x236.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c01::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dr1si106145wib.3.2013.06.22.05.48.15 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 22 Jun 2013 05:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c01::236; Received: by mail-ve0-f182.google.com with SMTP id ox1so7228695veb.41 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 05:48:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.220.71.200 with SMTP id i8mr7571099vcj.44.1371905294710; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 05:48:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.115.68 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 05:47:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5d7f238f-ff93-40ab-af24-fc6320d91b23@googlegroups.com> References: <5d7f238f-ff93-40ab-af24-fc6320d91b23@googlegroups.com> From: ".arpis." Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 08:47:54 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo} To: Lojban X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c23448c1bea704dfbd97e4 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11c23448c1bea704dfbd97e4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 4:04 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <= volishavas@gmail.com>wrote: > Hi! If I want to say "I have a car. The car is white.": > (I'm interested only in differences between {le} and {lo}.) > 1. with {le}: mi ponse le karce .i le karce cu blabi > 2. with {lo}: mi ponse lo karce .i lo karce cu blabi > I think the first choice is better. Am I right? > I would still use the second choice, because to me, the most important feature of {le} is not the specificity (Russian gets by without a distinction between specific and non-specific just fine), but the non-veridicality (i.e. that {lo broda cu broda} is tautological but that {le broda cu broda} is not). Better than the second choice, I'd probably use 1. {mi ponse lo karce .i ky blabi} or 2. {mi ponse lo karce noi blabi} or even 3. {lo karce ge se ponse mi gi blabi}. In both the sentences you gave, the second {karce} isn't necessarily, but is probably, the same as the first {karce}; in the ones I gave, it's clear that I'm referring to the same car (well, (1.) is slightly ambiguous, but less so than yours Both your statements are comparable to "=F5 =CD=C5=CE=D1 =CD=C1=DB=C9=CE=C1= . =ED=C1=DB=C9=CE=C1 =CB=D2=C1=D3=CE=C1=D1." My alternatives are comparable to: 1. "=F5 =CD=C5=CE=D1 =CD=C1=DB=C9=CE=C1. =EF=CE=C1 =CB=D2=C1=D3=CE=C1=D1." 2. "=F5 =CD=C5=CE=D1 =CD=C1=DB=C9=CE=C1 =CB=CF=D4=CF=D2=C1=D1 =CB=D2=C1=D3= =CE=C1=D1." or "=F5 =CD=C5=CE=D1 =CD=C1=DB=C9=CE=C1 =CB=D2=C1=D3=CE=C1=D1." 3. "=ED=C1=DB=C9=CE=C1 =CD=CF=D1 =C9 =CB=D2=C1=D3=CE=C1=D1." > > =D0=D1=D4=CE=C9=C3=C1, 21 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 17:26:12 UTC+6 =D0=CF= =CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 .arpis. =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >> >> {le} is what you say when you have a particular thing in mind or when yo= u >> want to indicate that the thing you're talking about isn't necessarily a >> {broda}; {lo} is what you say whenever you don't want to indicate the >> previous fact. Most people use {le} for "the", but I think this is malgl= i. >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 5:29 AM, la arxokuna wrot= e: >> >>> mi'a got a request to explain the difference between {lo} and {le} with >>> good examples from English. The person who is asking for that is not >>> satisfied with what is described in BPFK sections of lojban.org. Please >>> help. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alex R >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .arpis. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --001a11c23448c1bea704dfbd97e4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 4:04 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB= =C5=D7 <volishavas@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi! If I want to say &quo= t;I have a car. The car is white.":
(I'm interested only in dif= ferences between {le} and {lo}.)
1. with {le}: mi ponse le karce .i le karce cu blabi
2. with {lo}: mi po= nse lo karce .i lo karce cu blabi
I think the first choice is better. Am= I right?

I would still use the second = choice, because to me, the most important feature of {le} is not the specif= icity (Russian gets by without a distinction between specific and non-speci= fic just fine), but the non-veridicality (i.e. that {lo broda cu broda} is = tautological but that {le broda cu broda} is not).

Better than the second choice, I'd probably use
1. {mi ponse lo = karce .i ky blabi} or
2. {mi ponse lo karce noi blabi} or even
3. {= lo karce ge se ponse mi gi blabi}.


In both the sentences you gav= e, the second {karce} isn't necessarily, but is probably, the same as t= he first {karce}; in the ones I gave, it's clear that I'm referring= to the same car (well, (1.) is slightly ambiguous, but less so than yours<= br>
Both your statements are comparable to "=F5 =CD=C5=CE= =D1 =CD=C1=DB=C9=CE=C1. =ED=C1=DB=C9=CE=C1 =CB=D2=C1=D3=CE=C1=D1."
=
My alternatives are comparable to:
1. "=F5 =CD=C5=CE=D1 = =CD=C1=DB=C9=CE=C1. =EF=CE=C1 =CB=D2=C1=D3=CE=C1=D1."
2. "=F5 = =CD=C5=CE=D1 =CD=C1=DB=C9=CE=C1 =CB=CF=D4=CF=D2=C1=D1 =CB=D2=C1=D3=CE=C1=D1= ." or "=F5 =CD=C5=CE=D1 =CD=C1=DB=C9=CE=C1 =CB=D2=C1=D3=CE=C1=D1.= "
3. "=ED=C1=DB=C9=CE=C1 =CD=CF=D1 =C9 =CB=D2=C1=D3=CE=C1=D1."
<= /div>


<= br>=D0=D1=D4=CE=C9=C3=C1, 21 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013=9A=C7., 17:26:12 UTC+6 =D0= =CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 .arpis. =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
{le} is what you say when you have a par= ticular thing in mind or when you want to indicate that the thing you'r= e talking about isn't necessarily a {broda}; {lo} is what you say whene= ver you don't want to indicate the previous fact. Most people use {le} = for "the", but I think this is malgli.


On Fr= i, Jun 21, 2013 at 5:29 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is..= .@gmail.com> wrote:
m= i'a got a request to explain the difference between {lo} and {le} with = good examples from English. The person who is asking for that is not satisf= ied with what is described in BPFK sections of lojban.org. Please help.

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=9A



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=9A=9A =9A =9A = =9A =9AAlex R

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