Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.35 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.115.35;
References: <e7d449eb-3494-4ffa-a469-3145135f6f96@googlegroups.com> <CALm==BWNQg8g6+nGS2Tr1o5LhYB=3PYFihar-jeb5gQhP4Hd=Q@mail.gmail.com> <5d7f238f-ff93-40ab-af24-fc6320d91b23@googlegroups.com> <CAMKwHj1rHGmv_ZA6q5N5_sLgOS+pTLDFEdXxhDHt3yZ8tJJu3Q@mail.gmail.com> <c881bb54-556a-4507-8a69-5d9836d4590c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1371915443.14044.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 08:37:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo}
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <c881bb54-556a-4507-8a69-5d9836d4590c@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-1412092350-1097193165-1371915443=:14044"
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

---1412092350-1097193165-1371915443=:14044
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Though it doesn't help with practical problems, the answer to yourlast ques=
tion is at least clear and (relatively) simple.=9A Loglan. Lojban's ancesto=
r, was built on First Order Predicate Logic, basically Whitehead and Russel=
l with various simplifications and improvements.=9A Thus it contained Defin=
ite Description (iota) as the only means of converting formulas to terms "T=
he one and only F".=9A This became {le} in Loglan.=9A But the FOPL definiti=
on of iota did not work well for a language; the things we wanted to refer =
to by their properties were usually not unique, but if an iota description =
did not pick out a unique object, the whole sentence was false (or nonsense=
 or something unpredictable).=9A Loglan took the case where there was more =
than one thing with the property in question as not a problem, since it cou=
ld take that case as referring to a set rather than an individual (Loglan d=
idn't have the details of this worked out, it was taken as an article of
 faith) and work just fine.=9A For the case where there was no individual s=
atisfying the description, Loglan made the rule that we had intended to pic=
k out some individual but had happened to misdescribe it and the descriptio=
n worked if it was understood to refer to the individual intended.=9A This =
permission instantly got extended to cover cases where there were things th=
at met the description, hence the present definition of {le}, although for =
some time it was the only descriptor (well, it and the set version), so use=
d across the board.=9A But that, led to problems in a number of cases: we o=
ften did want to insist on thing that really did have the property mentione=
d, with no possibility of weasling, and we often wanted to refer to rather =
amorphous bunches of these things, not something we had clearly in mind.=9A=
 Hence, {lo} was born, as the "otherwise" operator.=9A But the history of t=
hat particle is for another day.


________________________________
 From: =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volishavas@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2013 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo}
=20


I don't worry just about the case. But I want to know precise distinction b=
etween using {le} and {lo}. Yes, I'm Russian, but it doesn't mean anything =
in the way of Lojban.

From http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri I understood {lo} is =
anything, and {le} is {lo} that I have in my mind in the moment of speaking=
. For example,

mi ba terve'u lo karce - cuz right now I don't have in my mind image of my =
future car I'll want, but
mi ca ca'a ponse le karce

And if you're going to say that using {mi ca ca'a ponse lo karce} is perfec=
tly well, then I might ask why even {le} exists in Lojban.

=D3=D5=C2=C2=CF=D4=C1, 22 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013=9A=C7., 3:54:34 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=
=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 2:04 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <=
volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Hi! If I want to say "I have a car. The car is white.":
>>(I'm interested only in differences between {le} and {lo}.)
>>1. with {le}: mi ponse le karce .i le karce cu blabi
>>2. with {lo}: mi ponse lo karce .i lo karce cu blabi
>>I think the first choice is better. Am I right?
>>
>
>Let me put it this way: You're not wrong. It's perfectly fine to use {le} =
instead of {lo}, but I wouldn't myself say it's better to. I also wouldn't =
say it's worse to.
>
>As long as the thing you're talking about can be the x1 of whatever you're=
 using to describe it (i.e. something you are calling {lo ve klama} must be=
 a means of transportation), {lo} is never wrong, so when in doubt, use {lo=
}.
>=9A
>=D0=D1=D4=CE=C9=C3=C1, 21 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013=9A=C7., 17:26:12 UTC+6 =D0=CF=
=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 .arpis. =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
>>{le} is what you say when you have a particular thing in mind or when you=
 want to indicate that the thing you're talking about isn't necessarily a {=
broda}; {lo} is what you say whenever you don't want to indicate the previo=
us fact. Most people use {le} for "the", but I think this is malgli.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 5:29 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wro=
te:
>>>
>>>mi'a got a request to explain the difference between {lo} and {le} with =
good examples from English. The person who is asking for that is not satisf=
ied with what is described in BPFK sections of lojban.org. Please help.
>>>>
--=20
>>>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou=
ps "lojban" group.
>>>>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>
>>>>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>>>>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/grou ps/opt_out.
>>>>=9A
>>>>=9A
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--=20
>>>
>>>=9A=9A =9A =9A =9A =9AAlex R
>> --=20
>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "lojban" group.
>>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an=
 email to lojban+un...@ googlegroups.com.
>>To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/ groups/opt_out.
>>=9A
>>=9A
>>
>
>
>--=20
>mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
>.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


---1412092350-1097193165-1371915443=:14044
Content-Type: text/html; charset=KOI8-R
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Though it doesn't hel=
p with practical problems, the answer to yourlast question is at least clea=
r and (relatively) simple.&nbsp; Loglan. Lojban's ancestor, was built on Fi=
rst Order Predicate Logic, basically Whitehead and Russell with various sim=
plifications and improvements.&nbsp; Thus it contained Definite Description=
 (iota) as the only means of converting formulas to terms "The one and only=
 F".&nbsp; This became {le} in Loglan.&nbsp; But the FOPL definition of iot=
a did not work well for a language; the things we wanted to refer to by the=
ir properties were usually not unique, but if an iota description did not p=
ick out a unique object, the whole sentence was false (or nonsense or somet=
hing unpredictable).&nbsp; Loglan took the case where there was more than o=
ne thing with the property in question as not a problem, since it
 could take that case as referring to a set rather than an individual (Logl=
an didn't have the details of this worked out, it was taken as an article o=
f faith) and work just fine.&nbsp; For the case where there was no individu=
al satisfying the description, Loglan made the rule that we had intended to=
 pick out some individual but had happened to misdescribe it and the descri=
ption worked if it was understood to refer to the individual intended.&nbsp=
; This permission instantly got extended to cover cases where there were th=
ings that met the description, hence the present definition of {le}, althou=
gh for some time it was the only descriptor (well, it and the set version),=
 so used across the board.&nbsp; But that, led to problems in a number of c=
ases: we often did want to insist on thing that really did have the propert=
y mentioned, with no possibility of weasling, and we often wanted to refer =
to rather amorphous bunches of these things, not something we had
 clearly in mind.&nbsp; Hence, {lo} was born, as the "otherwise" operator.&=
nbsp; But the history of that particle is for another day.<br><div><span><b=
r></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,=
 new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: time=
s new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <=
hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-wei=
ght:bold;">From:</span></b> =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 &lt;vo=
lishavas@gmail.com&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span>=
</b> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sen=
t:</span></b> Friday, June 21, 2013 5:51 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weig=
ht: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of=
 {le} vs. {lo}<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv1865313393">I don't worry just about the case. But I want to =
know precise distinction between using {le} and {lo}. Yes, I'm Russian, but=
 it doesn't mean anything in the way of Lojban.<br><br>From http://www.lojb=
an.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri I understood {lo} is anything, and {le} i=
s {lo} that I have in my mind in the moment of speaking. For example,<br><b=
r>mi ba terve'u lo karce - cuz right now I don't have in my mind image of m=
y future car I'll want, but<br>mi ca ca'a ponse le karce<br><br>And if you'=
re going to say that using {mi ca ca'a ponse lo karce} is perfectly well, t=
hen I might ask why even {le} exists in Lojban.<br><br>=D3=D5=C2=C2=CF=D4=
=C1, 22 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013&nbsp;=C7., 3:54:34 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=
=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:<blockquote class=3D"yiv186531339=
3gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex;"><div class=3D"yiv1865313393gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 21=
, 2013 at 2:04 PM,
 =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
" rel=3D"nofollow">volis...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote =
class=3D"yiv1865313393gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Hi! If I want to say "I have a car. The car is white.":<br>(I'm interested =
only in differences between {le} and {lo}.)<br>1. with {le}: mi ponse le ka=
rce .i le karce cu blabi<br>2. with {lo}: mi ponse lo karce .i lo karce cu =
blabi<br>
I think the first choice is better. Am I right?<br></blockquote><div><br>Le=
t me put it this way: You're not wrong. It's perfectly fine to use {le} ins=
tead of {lo}, but I wouldn't myself say it's better to. I also wouldn't say=
 it's worse to.<br>
<br>As long as the thing you're talking about can be the x1 of whatever you=
're using to describe it (i.e. something you are calling {lo ve klama} must=
 be a means of transportation), {lo} is never wrong, so when in doubt, use =
{lo}.<br>
&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv1865313393gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">=D0=D1=D4=CE=C9=C3=
=C1, 21 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013&nbsp;=C7., 17:26:12 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=
=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 .arpis. =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:<blockquote class=3D"yiv18653=
13393gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div><div dir=3D"ltr">{le} is what you say when you have a particular thing=
 in mind or when you want to indicate that the thing you're talking about i=
sn't necessarily a {broda}; {lo} is what you say whenever you don't want to=
 indicate the previous fact. Most people use {le} for "the", but I think th=
is is malgli.<br>


</div></div><div><br><br><div class=3D"yiv1865313393gmail_quote"><div>On Fr=
i, Jun 21, 2013 at 5:29 AM, la arxokuna <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"" =
rel=3D"nofollow">gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv1865313393gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div>mi'a got a request =
to explain the difference between {lo} and {le} with good examples from Eng=
lish. The person who is asking for that is not satisfied with what is descr=
ibed in BPFK sections of <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http=
://lojban.org/">lojban.org</a>. Please help.</div>
<span><font color=3D"#888888"><div><div>

<br></div>


-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br></div>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow">lojban+un...@<u></u>googlegroups.com<=
/a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow">loj...@g=
ooglegroups.com</a>.<div><br>
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.<br>
For more options, visit <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https=
://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out">https://groups.google.com/<u></u>grou =
ps/opt_out</a>.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><span><font co=
lor=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp;Alex R</div></div>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote><div><div>


-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow">lojban+un...@ googlegroups.com</a>.<b=
r>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow">loj...@g=
ooglegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.<br>
For more options, visit <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https=
://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out">https://groups.google.com/ groups/opt_=
out</a>.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu'o mi'e .=
aionys.<br><br>.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu=
 do zo'o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br>

</blockquote>


-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br>
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br>
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.<br>
For more options, visit <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https=
://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_o=
ut</a>.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

---1412092350-1097193165-1371915443=:14044--