Received: from mail-yh0-f64.google.com ([209.85.213.64]:33441) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Uqcod-0001CT-M0 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 22:26:35 -0700 Received: by mail-yh0-f64.google.com with SMTP id b20sf3093233yha.29 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 22:26:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=XtwIhwLKM2SK/SRYQtSIR6fLRJIoBUCOdD5e6aWhSwU=; b=ccqZvASVBQ5kOCWJRNleRSRLvuhKknkxp1puvlPdWEFWUhS2SO5z+fIqoeQsWMBd/s iRU6/CD5AvKZYjlzaC3jvJ6R6Ee3xoR05QHXmdiBxrJB9y9ZTV1Axp7UAYMYv2LIlXwB phWmWvOE7iDTiL5vCQvFYsVfZD2nQqCYh5t8Xo0Ml//YyoSQuzIRKWwXPw5qJsvDPxmU A2ym/DY9qPk4Nj7RD+BaYiqQxOPTOxOCWSgzrZ/xb3O0a5fRqMqDDqMQpFB6VRaAQK3H +Ltgd55aYiX5qHX0amErCGDyFzJshxt5VypQXfFPHPAzNQTKN0rPYAgqZutf/0kchIM7 adLw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=XtwIhwLKM2SK/SRYQtSIR6fLRJIoBUCOdD5e6aWhSwU=; b=LFu6vtycqv1KC8k/6r1gjMtN6K3khgRBVdj9A6jfLa62JbZCr8f+IcSSt7bhL+yS7/ NYJhmAAWLUGcGoUPM6fuQhGC31HM3ACQBaaHKRAVWaYt6lpjoLLDa9HPN4+o+eoQY2FD tegP7wGt9GYVJcqrDOjIa7+SZ+deBTfgWSB0BhkBNdAURjCqVmQClizkwFbK0ZFCdd3b i8+vGvoNzBtbhIpJaZLoSfGoe9NWfUX3tyhvjwSmGy/ZrWM8+WmlUjE6Z2Lo/dgKVm25 eUpUW7AZgMcTYDU4V/uxQVpC7EXEmJaWujEuoEIVkddKjmdBKxMLqY1lv4nnhMK+uv6Z EM9A== X-Received: by 10.49.120.67 with SMTP id la3mr428688qeb.35.1371965173150; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 22:26:13 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.118.198 with SMTP id ko6ls1581958qeb.61.gmail; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 22:26:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.224.59.205 with SMTP id m13mr20762849qah.7.1371965172514; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 22:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.181.75 with SMTP id bx11msqab; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 22:48:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.0.200 with SMTP id 8mr353214qeg.38.1371880136863; Fri, 21 Jun 2013 22:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 22:48:56 -0700 (PDT) From: =?UTF-8?B?0JDQvdCw0YLQvtC70LjQuSDQk9Cw0YjQtdCy?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <199f9de9-f0bb-4cbb-bd8e-e124b45d5d1d@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <5d7f238f-ff93-40ab-af24-fc6320d91b23@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo} MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: volishavas@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1501_30832941.1371880136487" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_1501_30832941.1371880136487 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In my opinion, it's a {prexorlo}-way of thinking. Read these to clarify:=20 http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri or=20 http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo . =D3=D5=C2=C2=CF=D4=C1, 22 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 6:22:48 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC= =D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: > > On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 4:51 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7= > > wrote: > >> I don't worry just about the case. But I want to know precise distinctio= n=20 >> between using {le} and {lo}. Yes, I'm Russian, but it doesn't mean anyth= ing=20 >> in the way of Lojban. >> >> From http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri I understood {lo}= =20 >> is anything, and {le} is {lo} that I have in my mind in the moment of=20 >> speaking. For example, >> >> mi ba terve'u lo karce - cuz right now I don't have in my mind image of= =20 >> my future car I'll want, but >> mi ca ca'a ponse le karce >> >> And if you're going to say that using {mi ca ca'a ponse lo karce} is=20 >> perfectly well, then I might ask why even {le} exists in Lojban. >> > > {lo} can have a specific reference, but doesn't need to. Whatever is=20 > referenced with {lo} must be something that satisfies the x1 of the=20 > internal selbri. > > {le} must always have a specific reference. Whatever is referenced with= =20 > {le} can satisfy the x1 of the internal selbri, but doesn't have to. > > > You can't call a dog that looks very bear-like {lo cribe}, but you can=20 > call it {le cribe}. > > The difference is that {lo} means it /actually is/ whatever you're callin= g=20 > it. {lo karce} is actually a car, {lo cribe} actually is a bear, while {l= e}=20 > merely means that you are describing a specific thing as that, whether or= =20 > not it actually is. > > If you don't know if someone is a man or a woman, you can call that perso= n=20 > {le ninmu} even if it turns out that's a man, but you can't call that=20 > person {lo ninmu}. (For anyone who's seen old SNL, Pat is a great example= =20 > of this.) > > =20 > >> =D3=D5=C2=C2=CF=D4=C1, 22 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:54:34 UTC+6 =D0=CF= =CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 2:04 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5= =D7 wrote: >>> >>>> Hi! If I want to say "I have a car. The car is white.": >>>> (I'm interested only in differences between {le} and {lo}.) >>>> 1. with {le}: mi ponse le karce .i le karce cu blabi >>>> 2. with {lo}: mi ponse lo karce .i lo karce cu blabi >>>> I think the first choice is better. Am I right? >>>> >>> >>> Let me put it this way: You're not wrong. It's perfectly fine to use=20 >>> {le} instead of {lo}, but I wouldn't myself say it's better to. I also= =20 >>> wouldn't say it's worse to. >>> >>> As long as the thing you're talking about can be the x1 of whatever=20 >>> you're using to describe it (i.e. something you are calling {lo ve klam= a}=20 >>> must be a means of transportation), {lo} is never wrong, so when in dou= bt,=20 >>> use {lo}. >>> =20 >>> >>>> =D0=D1=D4=CE=C9=C3=C1, 21 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 17:26:12 UTC+6 =D0= =CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 .arpis. =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>>>> >>>>> {le} is what you say when you have a particular thing in mind or when= =20 >>>>> you want to indicate that the thing you're talking about isn't necess= arily=20 >>>>> a {broda}; {lo} is what you say whenever you don't want to indicate t= he=20 >>>>> previous fact. Most people use {le} for "the", but I think this is ma= lgli. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 5:29 AM, la arxokuna w= rote: >>>>> >>>>>> mi'a got a request to explain the difference between {lo} and {le}= =20 >>>>>> with good examples from English. The person who is asking for that i= s not=20 >>>>>> satisfied with what is described in BPFK sections of lojban.org.=20 >>>>>> Please help. >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> --=20 >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= =20 >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,=20 >>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban >>>>>> . >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out= >>>>>> . >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --=20 >>>>> Alex R >>>>> =20 >>>> --=20 >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= =20 >>>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>>> . >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --=20 >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n=20 >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> =20 >> =20 >> > > > > --=20 > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_1501_30832941.1371880136487 Content-Type: text/html; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In my opinion, it's a {prexorlo}-way of thinking. Read these to clarify: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri or http://www.l= ojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo .

=D3=D5=C2=C2=CF=D4=C1, 22 =C9=C0= =CE=D1 2013 =C7., 6:22:48 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 a= ionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 4:51 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF= =CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't worry just about the case. But I want to know precise distinction b= etween using {le} and {lo}. Yes, I'm Russian, but it doesn't mean anything = in the way of Lojban.

From http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+= Section%3A+gadri I understood {lo} is anything, and {le} is {lo} that I= have in my mind in the moment of speaking. For example,

mi ba terve'u lo karce - cuz right now I don't have in my mind image of= my future car I'll want, but
mi ca ca'a ponse le karce

And if yo= u're going to say that using {mi ca ca'a ponse lo karce} is perfectly well,= then I might ask why even {le} exists in Lojban.

{lo} can have a specific reference, but doesn't need = to. Whatever is=20 referenced with {lo} must be something that satisfies the x1 of the=20 internal selbri.

{le} must always have a specific reference.=20 Whatever is referenced with {le} can satisfy the x1 of the internal=20 selbri, but doesn't have to.


You can't call a dog that looks ver= y bear-like {lo cribe}, but you can call it {le cribe}.

The differen= ce is that {lo} means it /actually is/ whatever you're calling it. {lo karc= e} is actually a car, {lo cribe} actually is a bear, while {le} merely mean= s that you are describing a specific thing as that, whether or not it actua= lly is.

If you don't know if someone is a man or a woman, you can call that per= son {le ninmu} even if it turns out that's a man, but you can't call that p= erson {lo ninmu}. (For anyone who's seen old SNL, Pat is a great example of= this.)

 
=D3=D5=C2=C2=CF=D4=C1, 22 = =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:54:34 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5= =CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 2:04 PM, =E1= =CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gma= il.com> wrote:
Hi! If I want to say "I have a car. The car is white.":
(I'm interested = only in differences between {le} and {lo}.)
1. with {le}: mi ponse le ka= rce .i le karce cu blabi
2. with {lo}: mi ponse lo karce .i lo karce cu = blabi
I think the first choice is better. Am I right?

Le= t me put it this way: You're not wrong. It's perfectly fine to use {le} ins= tead of {lo}, but I wouldn't myself say it's better to. I also wouldn't say= it's worse to.

As long as the thing you're talking about can be the x1 of whatever you= 're using to describe it (i.e. something you are calling {lo ve klama} must= be a means of transportation), {lo} is never wrong, so when in doubt, use = {lo}.
 
=D0=D1=D4=CE=C9=C3=C1, 21 =C9=C0= =CE=D1 2013 =C7., 17:26:12 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 = .arpis. =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
{le} is what you say when you have a particular thing= in mind or when you want to indicate that the thing you're talking about i= sn't necessarily a {broda}; {lo} is what you say whenever you don't want to= indicate the previous fact. Most people use {le} for "the", but I think th= is is malgli.


On Fri, Jun 21, 20= 13 at 5:29 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

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--
      =    Alex R

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--



--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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