Received: from mail-la0-f61.google.com ([209.85.215.61]:58752) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UqdnK-0001Ot-IC for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 23:29:15 -0700 Received: by mail-la0-f61.google.com with SMTP id ek20sf1830829lab.6 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 23:28:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=IWTS6fcx/EkoyNOiaI5Sq3eLtBHpKkjapeAAmefz2hI=; b=otxtH0SQI4q4JwBawRu3wU6aQkFIFCS59xy3BXezc1Fn4KPjpFz+f5wQyuowi3H7Cf d0EpnsfptvrZ7Gk6DPfE+5mnNCo1UWnqrzf/kTPA9pXysTwoix1ID9O37Y1X2vV2MgQu m33KdmjyHQsUjaZ+JA18J5znGy/xkO5uuwcqmqzDd36wQReWtUthIqtT03IIiQWaJEra zKov3g5UeUhZ79LUXOEOEm5KdVPP3lJOF83Yh+WXmRKQCgjJqphR7WgeBuLL/xc8GCV2 y7pILzh9w51zNc03tQYAmlBa7P16ATyZAC5JntWVls3muBcXp3YrfMQ8Ib83FQfIpI6G guQQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=IWTS6fcx/EkoyNOiaI5Sq3eLtBHpKkjapeAAmefz2hI=; b=XWXmexI3s1pA+85RHPp3+yZW+JlS5pRdSMaCml+Lp5DjIjoWYsbzQtVDQPdMMpW0Tv NjaxM9ae9Lo+d58zdaee2fSsjmfBLKXQk+7TJaZMJW6uJd9UuB5hZvHvg9Md0n6O9RGv Faj+aksas8ly6vShFsG21HizySLPBfglMpGsvFV2cU/ZEA8t1vJa7Vo5AxbbwFZT8GXx jkcWC0i/35/Fc/tEiDKw3TrFEaCPYhh4sQNJLK6JEyb+4fbSJHPVSToMJmgGqW+j24Te V9qUJQYfXqd1so32qqX9Wz0aSDzcwjaOP79ksHxFVSL3+EANkNHLa+ty6Ch2RHzJtK+E 1Aug== X-Received: by 10.180.37.239 with SMTP id b15mr136285wik.12.1371968934630; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 23:28:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.104.231 with SMTP id gh7ls404536wib.31.canary; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 23:28:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.204.182.4 with SMTP id ca4mr1841454bkb.4.1371968934064; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 23:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x22b.google.com (mail-la0-x22b.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c03::22b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id nl4si58354bkb.2.2013.06.22.23.28.53 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 22 Jun 2013 23:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c03::22b; Received: by mail-la0-f43.google.com with SMTP id gw10so9042331lab.16 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 23:28:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.37.138 with SMTP id y10mr8914887laj.40.1371968933678; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 23:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.29.10 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Jun 2013 23:28:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199f9de9-f0bb-4cbb-bd8e-e124b45d5d1d@googlegroups.com> References: <5d7f238f-ff93-40ab-af24-fc6320d91b23@googlegroups.com> <199f9de9-f0bb-4cbb-bd8e-e124b45d5d1d@googlegroups.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 00:28:53 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo} From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0141abf4ef553a04dfcc68ee X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e0141abf4ef553a04dfcc68ee Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 11:48 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 = wrote: > In my opinion, it's a {prexorlo}-way of thinking. Read these to clarify: > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**BPFK+Section%3A+gadrior > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo . > I think you should be the one reading them, because no, it isn't. > =D3=D5=C2=C2=CF=D4=C1, 22 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 6:22:48 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC= =D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: > >> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 4:51 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5= =D7 wrote: >> >>> I don't worry just about the case. But I want to know precise >>> distinction between using {le} and {lo}. Yes, I'm Russian, but it doesn= 't >>> mean anything in the way of Lojban. >>> >>> From http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**BPFK+Section%3A+gadriI understood {lo} is anything, and {le} i= s {lo} that I have in my mind in >>> the moment of speaking. For example, >>> >>> mi ba terve'u lo karce - cuz right now I don't have in my mind image of >>> my future car I'll want, but >>> mi ca ca'a ponse le karce >>> >>> And if you're going to say that using {mi ca ca'a ponse lo karce} is >>> perfectly well, then I might ask why even {le} exists in Lojban. >>> >> >> {lo} can have a specific reference, but doesn't need to. Whatever is >> referenced with {lo} must be something that satisfies the x1 of the >> internal selbri. >> >> {le} must always have a specific reference. Whatever is referenced with >> {le} can satisfy the x1 of the internal selbri, but doesn't have to. >> >> >> You can't call a dog that looks very bear-like {lo cribe}, but you can >> call it {le cribe}. >> >> The difference is that {lo} means it /actually is/ whatever you're >> calling it. {lo karce} is actually a car, {lo cribe} actually is a bear, >> while {le} merely means that you are describing a specific thing as that= , >> whether or not it actually is. >> >> If you don't know if someone is a man or a woman, you can call that >> person {le ninmu} even if it turns out that's a man, but you can't call >> that person {lo ninmu}. (For anyone who's seen old SNL, Pat is a great >> example of this.) >> >> >> >>> =D3=D5=C2=C2=CF=D4=C1, 22 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:54:34 UTC+6 =D0=CF= =CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 2:04 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5= =D7 wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi! If I want to say "I have a car. The car is white.": >>>>> (I'm interested only in differences between {le} and {lo}.) >>>>> 1. with {le}: mi ponse le karce .i le karce cu blabi >>>>> 2. with {lo}: mi ponse lo karce .i lo karce cu blabi >>>>> I think the first choice is better. Am I right? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Let me put it this way: You're not wrong. It's perfectly fine to use >>>> {le} instead of {lo}, but I wouldn't myself say it's better to. I also >>>> wouldn't say it's worse to. >>>> >>>> As long as the thing you're talking about can be the x1 of whatever >>>> you're using to describe it (i.e. something you are calling {lo ve kla= ma} >>>> must be a means of transportation), {lo} is never wrong, so when in do= ubt, >>>> use {lo}. >>>> >>>> >>>>> =D0=D1=D4=CE=C9=C3=C1, 21 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 17:26:12 UTC+6 =D0= =CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 .arpis. =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>>>>> >>>>>> {le} is what you say when you have a particular thing in mind or whe= n >>>>>> you want to indicate that the thing you're talking about isn't neces= sarily >>>>>> a {broda}; {lo} is what you say whenever you don't want to indicate = the >>>>>> previous fact. Most people use {le} for "the", but I think this is m= algli. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 5:29 AM, la arxokuna = wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> mi'a got a request to explain the difference between {lo} and {le} >>>>>>> with good examples from English. The person who is asking for that = is not >>>>>>> satisfied with what is described in BPFK sections of lojban.org. >>>>>>> Please help. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group****/lojban >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**** >>>>>>> ps/opt_out . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Alex R >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d >>>>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out<= https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>> >>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --089e0141abf4ef553a04dfcc68ee Content-Type: text/html; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 11:48 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4= =CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volishavas@gmail.com> wrote= :
In my opinion, it's a {prexorlo}-way of thinking. Read these to clarify= : http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri or http://= www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo .

I think you should be the one reading them, because n= o, it isn't.
=9A
=D3=D5=C2=C2=CF= =D4=C1, 22 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013=9A=C7., 6:22:48 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1= =D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 4:51 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1= =DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.com> wrote:=
I don't worry just about the case. But I want to know precise distincti= on between using {le} and {lo}. Yes, I'm Russian, but it doesn't me= an anything in the way of Lojban.

From http://www.lojban.org/tik= i/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri I understood {lo} is anything, and {le} = is {lo} that I have in my mind in the moment of speaking. For example,

mi ba terve'u lo karce - cuz right now I don't have in my mind = image of my future car I'll want, but
mi ca ca'a ponse le karce<= br>
And if you're going to say that using {mi ca ca'a ponse lo k= arce} is perfectly well, then I might ask why even {le} exists in Lojban.

{lo} can have a specific reference, but doesn't n= eed to. Whatever is=20 referenced with {lo} must be something that satisfies the x1 of the=20 internal selbri.

{le} must always have a specific reference.=20 Whatever is referenced with {le} can satisfy the x1 of the internal=20 selbri, but doesn't have to.


You can't call a dog that l= ooks very bear-like {lo cribe}, but you can call it {le cribe}.

The = difference is that {lo} means it /actually is/ whatever you're calling = it. {lo karce} is actually a car, {lo cribe} actually is a bear, while {le}= merely means that you are describing a specific thing as that, whether or = not it actually is.

If you don't know if someone is a man or a woman, you can call that= person {le ninmu} even if it turns out that's a man, but you can't= call that person {lo ninmu}. (For anyone who's seen old SNL, Pat is a = great example of this.)

=9A
=D3=D5=C2=C2=CF=D4=C1, 22 =C9= =C0=CE=D1 2013=9A=C7., 3:54:34 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 a= ionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 2:04 PM, =E1= =CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gma= il.com> wrote:
Hi! If I want to say "I have a car. The car is white.":
(I'= ;m interested only in differences between {le} and {lo}.)
1. with {le}: = mi ponse le karce .i le karce cu blabi
2. with {lo}: mi ponse lo karce .= i lo karce cu blabi
I think the first choice is better. Am I right?

Le= t me put it this way: You're not wrong. It's perfectly fine to use = {le} instead of {lo}, but I wouldn't myself say it's better to. I a= lso wouldn't say it's worse to.

As long as the thing you're talking about can be the x1 of whatever= you're using to describe it (i.e. something you are calling {lo ve kla= ma} must be a means of transportation), {lo} is never wrong, so when in dou= bt, use {lo}.
=9A
=D0=D1=D4=CE=C9=C3=C1, 21 =C9=C0=CE= =D1 2013=9A=C7., 17:26:12 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 .arpis= . =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
{le} is what you say when you have a particular thing= in mind or when you want to indicate that the thing you're talking abo= ut isn't necessarily a {broda}; {lo} is what you say whenever you don&#= 39;t want to indicate the previous fact. Most people use {le} for "the= ", but I think this is malgli.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out<= /a>.
=9A
=9A



--



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
=9A
=9A



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
--089e0141abf4ef553a04dfcc68ee--