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Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo}
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From: "John E. Clifford" <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
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Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 09:25:34 -0500
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 Content preview:  One needs to distinguish between truth and success. If you
    and the relevant others think that is a man, you may well succeed in conveying
    some truth about that person, even though what you say is strictly false
   or only accidentally true. [...] 
 
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One needs to distinguish between truth and success.  If you and the relevan=
t others think that is a man, you may well succeed in conveying some truth =
about that person, even though what you say is strictly false or only accid=
entally true.

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 23, 2013, at 5:21, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volisha=
vas@gmail.com> wrote:

> I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a man.
> You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la selpa'i.=
 And they can say am I right or not.
>=20
> =D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 12:28:53 UT=
C+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 11:48 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=
=D7 <volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In my opinion, it's a {prexorlo}-way of thinking. Read these to clarify: =
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri or http://www.lojban.org/t=
iki/How+to+use+xorlo .
>=20
> I think you should be the one reading them, because no, it isn't.
> =20
> =D3=D5=C2=C2=CF=D4=C1, 22 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 6:22:48 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=
=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
> {lo} can have a specific reference, but doesn't need to. Whatever is refe=
renced with {lo} must be something that satisfies the x1 of the internal se=
lbri.
> {le} must always have a specific reference. Whatever is referenced with {=
le} can satisfy the x1 of the internal selbri, but doesn't have to.
>=20
> You can't call a dog that looks very bear-like {lo cribe}, but you can ca=
ll it {le cribe}.
>=20
> The difference is that {lo} means it /actually is/ whatever you're callin=
g it. {lo karce} is actually a car, {lo cribe} actually is a bear, while {l=
e} merely means that you are describing a specific thing as that, whether o=
r not it actually is.
>=20
> If you don't know if someone is a man or a woman, you can call that perso=
n {le ninmu} even if it turns out that's a man, but you can't call that per=
son {lo ninmu}. (For anyone who's seen old SNL, Pat is a great example of t=
his.)
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>=20
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an=
 email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>=20
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "lojban" group.
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 email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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> =20
> =20

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<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>One needs to distinguish =
between truth and success. &nbsp;If you and the relevant others think that =
is a man, you may well succeed in conveying some truth about that person, e=
ven though what you say is strictly false or only accidentally true.<br><br=
>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Jun 23, 2013, at 5:21, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=
=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:volishavas@gmail.com">volis=
havas@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"=
cite"><div>I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a ma=
n.<br>You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la selp=
a'i. And they can say am I right or not.<br><br>=D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=
=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013&nbsp;=C7., 12:28:53 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=
=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 11:48 =
PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"5wH_owL7QFQJ">v=
olis...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
In my opinion, it's a {prexorlo}-way of thinking. Read these to clarify: <a=
 href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri" target=3D"_blank=
">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/<u></u>BPF<wbr>K+Section%3A+gadri</a> or <a hr=
ef=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo" target=3D"_blank">http:/=
/www.lojban.org/tiki/<wbr>How+to+use+xorlo</a> .<br>
</blockquote><div><br>I think you should be the one reading them, because n=
o, it isn't.<br>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=D3=D5=C2=C2=CF=
=D4=C1, 22 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013&nbsp;=C7., 6:22:48 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=
=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:<div>
<div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">{lo=
} can have a specific reference, but doesn't need to. Whatever is=20
referenced with {lo} must be something that satisfies the x1 of the=20
internal selbri.<br><div>{le} must always have a specific reference.=20
Whatever is referenced with {le} can satisfy the x1 of the internal=20
selbri, but doesn't have to.<br><br>You can't call a dog that looks very be=
ar-like {lo cribe}, but you can call it {le cribe}.<br><br>The difference i=
s that {lo} means it /actually is/ whatever you're calling it. {lo karce} i=
s actually a car, {lo cribe} actually is a bear, while {le} merely means th=
at you are describing a specific thing as that, whether or not it actually =
is.<br>

<br>If you don't know if someone is a man or a woman, you can call that per=
son {le ninmu} even if it turns out that's a man, but you can't call that p=
erson {lo ninmu}. (For anyone who's seen old SNL, Pat is a great example of=
 this.)<br>

<br></div><br></div>-- <br>mu'o mi'e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo =
pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Lu=
ke, I am your father. :D )<br>


</blockquote>

<p></p>

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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu'o mi'e .=
aionys.<br><br>.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu=
 do zo'o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br>

</blockquote>

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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div></blockquote></body></html>

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