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From: Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 13:50:14 -0400
Message-ID: <CAOQ8VDXWrLwD9ZsULhUSzAWMs5vm6SVZUCjwfpdaaA9Z9YYVHg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] A bug in the CLL 7.6 example 6.14).
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On 23 June 2013 09:43, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, June 21, 2013 12:04:27 AM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
>
>> Metalinguistic "height" according to CLL:
>> SEI..SEhU, TO..TOI > ordinary bridi > lu-quotes
>>
>
> Oh, nice diagram.
> I have a question. What about {fi'o}  (which is (or at least supposed to
> be) bridi relative clause) ?
>
> {mi xusra lo du'u do melbi i go'i}.  Here go'i states that {mi xusra lo
> du'u li'o}
>
> I guess in
> {fi'o xusra mi do melbi i go'i} go'i incoroprates {fi'o xusra mi} as well.
>

Yes. The fi'o-clause adds a term to the bridi, which requires that the
added term be on the same level as the bridi. Thus, it is included in the
go'i brika'i. All other terms are copied over with go'i (except for the
special rules involving {na}), so I don't see why fi'o wouldn't act the
same way.


> If we are to create a bridi relative clause (like e.g. {so'o'oi} in
> selmaho SEI) it should also incorporates such "comments" as {so'o'oi mi
> xusra se'u}.
>
>
Do you mean that the bridi relative clause should also be copied over, if
we were to allocate a SEI for bridi relative clauses? I don't really
understand what you're saying here.


> Next. I guess in
> {sei mi xusra  do melbi i go'i} go'i states that "you're beautiful", but
> not that "I assert that you are beautiful".
>
> Am I right?
>

Right. I don't think that "metalinguistic comments" should be copied over.
{sei} as described in the CLL is used to refer to the text of the utterance
rather than the meaning per se. Due to it's magic-word-ish nature, I don't
think that it should be copied.

I have been using {sei} for reference to the meaning of its containing
bridi, using it to make ad hoc attitudinals, in a sense.

e.g. {.i mi ba'o cliva lo zdani ca lo nicte carmi sei mi troci co mipri be
fi lo mi mamta .i do zu'unai ba'o se frili ku'i lo ka [ce'u] go'i [ra'o]}
"I have left my house, deep in the night, which I tried to hide from my
mother. You, on the other hand, had no trouble, in contrast, doing so
(leaving the house, that is)."

I think that this more complicated example demonstrates why we wouldn't
want the sei-clause to be copied in go'i: it would make this rather messy.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On 23 June 2013 09:43, la arxokuna <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.=
name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Friday, June 21, 2013 12:04:27 AM UTC+4, =
tsani wrote:<div class=3D"im"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Metalinguistic &quot;=
height&quot; according to CLL:<br>SEI..SEhU, TO..TOI &gt; ordinary bridi &g=
t; lu-quotes</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>

Oh, nice diagram.</div><div>I have a question. What about {fi&#39;o} =A0(wh=
ich is (or at least supposed to be) bridi relative clause) ?</div><div><br>=
</div><div>{mi xusra lo du&#39;u do melbi i go&#39;i}. =A0Here go&#39;i sta=
tes that {mi xusra lo du&#39;u li&#39;o}</div>

<div><br></div><div>I guess in</div><div>{fi&#39;o xusra mi do melbi i go&#=
39;i} go&#39;i incoroprates {fi&#39;o xusra mi} as well.</div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div>Yes. The fi&#39;o-clause adds a term to the bridi, whic=
h requires that the added term be on the same level as the bridi. Thus, it =
is included in the go&#39;i brika&#39;i. All other terms are copied over wi=
th go&#39;i (except for the special rules involving {na}), so I don&#39;t s=
ee why fi&#39;o wouldn&#39;t act the same way.</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>If we are to create a bri=
di relative clause (like e.g. {so&#39;o&#39;oi} in selmaho SEI) it should a=
lso incorporates such &quot;comments&quot; as {so&#39;o&#39;oi mi xusra se&=
#39;u}.</div>

<div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Do you mean that the bridi =
relative clause should also be copied over, if we were to allocate a SEI fo=
r bridi relative clauses? I don&#39;t really understand what you&#39;re say=
ing here.</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div></div><div>Next. I guess =
in=A0</div><div>{sei mi xusra =A0do melbi i go&#39;i} go&#39;i states that =
&quot;you&#39;re beautiful&quot;, but not that &quot;I assert that you are =
beautiful&quot;.<br>

</div><div><br></div><div>Am I right?</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
>Right. I don&#39;t think that &quot;metalinguistic comments&quot; should b=
e copied over. {sei} as described in the CLL is used to refer to the text o=
f the utterance rather than the meaning per se. Due to it&#39;s magic-word-=
ish nature, I don&#39;t think that it should be copied.=A0</div>

<div><br></div><div>I have been using {sei} for reference to the meaning of=
 its containing bridi, using it to make ad hoc attitudinals, in a sense.=A0=
</div><div><br></div><div>e.g. {.i mi ba&#39;o cliva lo zdani ca lo nicte c=
armi sei mi troci co mipri be fi lo mi mamta .i do zu&#39;unai ba&#39;o se =
frili ku&#39;i lo ka [ce&#39;u] go&#39;i [ra&#39;o]}</div>

<div>&quot;I have left my house, deep in the night, which I tried to hide f=
rom my mother. You, on the other hand, had no trouble, in contrast, doing s=
o (leaving the house, that is).&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>I think that=
 this more complicated example demonstrates why we wouldn&#39;t want the se=
i-clause to be copied in go&#39;i: it would make this rather messy.</div>

<div>=A0</div><div>.i mi&#39;e la tsani mu&#39;o</div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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