Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 11:29:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: Re: [lojban] A bug in the CLL 7.6 example 6.14).
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On Sunday, June 23, 2013 9:50:14 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
>
> On 23 June 2013 09:43, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com <javascript:>>wrote:
>
>> On Friday, June 21, 2013 12:04:27 AM UTC+4, tsani wrote:
>>
>>> Metalinguistic "height" according to CLL:
>>> SEI..SEhU, TO..TOI > ordinary bridi > lu-quotes
>>>
>>
>> Oh, nice diagram.
>> I have a question. What about {fi'o}  (which is (or at least supposed to 
>> be) bridi relative clause) ?
>>
>> {mi xusra lo du'u do melbi i go'i}.  Here go'i states that {mi xusra lo 
>> du'u li'o}
>>
>> I guess in
>> {fi'o xusra mi do melbi i go'i} go'i incoroprates {fi'o xusra mi} as well.
>>
>
> Yes. The fi'o-clause adds a term to the bridi, which requires that the 
> added term be on the same level as the bridi. Thus, it is included in the 
> go'i brika'i. All other terms are copied over with go'i (except for the 
> special rules involving {na}), so I don't see why fi'o wouldn't act the 
> same way.
>  
>
>> If we are to create a bridi relative clause (like e.g. {so'o'oi} in 
>> selmaho SEI) it should also incorporates such "comments" as {so'o'oi mi 
>> xusra se'u}.
>>
>>
> Do you mean that the bridi relative clause should also be copied over, if 
> we were to allocate a SEI for bridi relative clauses? I don't really 
> understand what you're saying here.
>

I'm not proposing anything. I'm just asking. Should bridi relative clause 
be copied or not?
 

>  
>
>> Next. I guess in 
>> {sei mi xusra  do melbi i go'i} go'i states that "you're beautiful", but 
>> not that "I assert that you are beautiful".
>>
>> Am I right?
>>
>
> Right. I don't think that "metalinguistic comments" should be copied over. 
> {sei} as described in the CLL is used to refer to the text of the utterance 
> rather than the meaning per se. Due to it's magic-word-ish nature, I don't 
> think that it should be copied. 
>
> I have been using {sei} for reference to the meaning of its containing 
> bridi, using it to make ad hoc attitudinals, in a sense. 
>
> e.g. {.i mi ba'o cliva lo zdani ca lo nicte carmi sei mi troci co mipri be 
> fi lo mi mamta .i do zu'unai ba'o se frili ku'i lo ka [ce'u] go'i [ra'o]}
> "I have left my house, deep in the night, which I tried to hide from my 
> mother. You, on the other hand, had no trouble, in contrast, doing so 
> (leaving the house, that is)."
>
> I think that this more complicated example demonstrates why we wouldn't 
> want the sei-clause to be copied in go'i: it would make this rather messy.
>  
>


Oh, and what about {to ... toi} ? They are also not copied, right? Or they 
are copied but {to'i ... toi} is not copied?


.i mi'e la tsani mu'o
>

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<br><br>On Sunday, June 23, 2013 9:50:14 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:<blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">On 23 June 2013 09:43, la=
 arxokuna <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" g=
df-obfuscated-mailto=3D"pIseqaSKq0MJ">gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Friday, June 21, 2013 12:04:27 AM UTC+4, =
tsani wrote:<div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin=
-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Metalinguistic "heigh=
t" according to CLL:<br>SEI..SEhU, TO..TOI &gt; ordinary bridi &gt; lu-quot=
es</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>

Oh, nice diagram.</div><div>I have a question. What about {fi'o} &nbsp;(whi=
ch is (or at least supposed to be) bridi relative clause) ?</div><div><br><=
/div><div>{mi xusra lo du'u do melbi i go'i}. &nbsp;Here go'i states that {=
mi xusra lo du'u li'o}</div>

<div><br></div><div>I guess in</div><div>{fi'o xusra mi do melbi i go'i} go=
'i incoroprates {fi'o xusra mi} as well.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div>Yes. The fi'o-clause adds a term to the bridi, which requires that the =
added term be on the same level as the bridi. Thus, it is included in the g=
o'i brika'i. All other terms are copied over with go'i (except for the spec=
ial rules involving {na}), so I don't see why fi'o wouldn't act the same wa=
y.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>If we are to create a =
bridi relative clause (like e.g. {so'o'oi} in selmaho SEI) it should also i=
ncorporates such "comments" as {so'o'oi mi xusra se'u}.</div>

<div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Do you mean that the bridi =
relative clause should also be copied over, if we were to allocate a SEI fo=
r bridi relative clauses? I don't really understand what you're saying here=
.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm not proposing=
 anything. I'm just asking. Should bridi relative clause be copied or not?<=
/div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;=
margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">

<div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div></div><div>Next. I gue=
ss in&nbsp;</div><div>{sei mi xusra &nbsp;do melbi i go'i} go'i states that=
 "you're beautiful", but not that "I assert that you are beautiful".<br>

</div><div><br></div><div>Am I right?</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
>Right. I don't think that "metalinguistic comments" should be copied over.=
 {sei} as described in the CLL is used to refer to the text of the utteranc=
e rather than the meaning per se. Due to it's magic-word-ish nature, I don'=
t think that it should be copied.&nbsp;</div>

<div><br></div><div>I have been using {sei} for reference to the meaning of=
 its containing bridi, using it to make ad hoc attitudinals, in a sense.&nb=
sp;</div><div><br></div><div>e.g. {.i mi ba'o cliva lo zdani ca lo nicte ca=
rmi sei mi troci co mipri be fi lo mi mamta .i do zu'unai ba'o se frili ku'=
i lo ka [ce'u] go'i [ra'o]}</div>

<div>"I have left my house, deep in the night, which I tried to hide from m=
y mother. You, on the other hand, had no trouble, in contrast, doing so (le=
aving the house, that is)."</div><div><br></div><div>I think that this more=
 complicated example demonstrates why we wouldn't want the sei-clause to be=
 copied in go'i: it would make this rather messy.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Oh, and what about {to ... toi} ? They are also not copied, right? =
Or they are copied but {to'i ... toi} is not copied?</div><div><br></div><d=
iv><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-le=
ft: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>.i mi'e la tsani mu'o</div></div></div=
></div>
</blockquote>

<p></p>

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