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Message-ID: <1372024141.49372.YahooMailNeo@web184404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2013 14:49:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo}
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Close enough to make the current point (both histories are more speckled th=
an one would like).=9A=20


________________________________
 From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo}
=20


On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <=
volishavas@gmail.com> wrote:

Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wrong. Cuz it =
may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a man and I think =
the person is a man.
>He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all that is why I called him=
/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}.
>Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meaning has chan=
ged dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997.
>

Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always has been/ v=
eridical- it must and can only be used for things which /actually are/ what=
 you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/ non-veridical.

xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed how quant=
ification works.
=9A
=D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013=9A=C7., 18:18:40 UT=
C+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
>On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=
=DB=C5=D7 wrote:=20
>>> I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a man.=20
>>> You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la selpa'=
i.=20
>>> And they can say am I right or not.=20
>>
>>Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe someone=20
>>who seems to be a man?=20
>>
>>Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then.=20
>>Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway when you=20
>>have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to=20
>>a specific individual no matter the description.=20
>>
>>
>>v4hn=20
>>
>--=20
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>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>=9A
>=9A
>


--=20
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
--=20
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Close enough to make =
the current point (both histories are more speckled than one would like).&n=
bsp; <br><div><span></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family=
: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D=
"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <=
div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span=
 style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Jonathan Jones &lt;eyeonus@gm=
ail.com&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban=
@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></=
b> Sunday, June 23, 2013 4:02 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">=
Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {=
lo}<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv1152294700"><div class=3D"yiv1152294700gmail_quote">On Sun, J=
un 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:volishavas@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:volishavas@gmail.com">volishavas@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"yiv1152294700gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wrong. Cuz it =
may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a man and I think =
the person is a man.<br>He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all t=
hat is why I called him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}.<br>
Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meaning has chang=
ed dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997.<br></blockquote><div><br=
>Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always has been/ =
veridical- it must and can only be used for things which /actually are/ wha=
t you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/ non-veridical.<b=
r>
<br>xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed how q=
uantification works.<br>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv1152294700gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex;">=D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013&nbsp;=C7., 18=
:18:40 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=
=CC:<div class=3D"yiv1152294700HOEnZb">
<div class=3D"yiv1152294700h5"><blockquote class=3D"yiv1152294700gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex;">On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=
=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote:
<br>&gt; I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a man.
<br>&gt; You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la s=
elpa'i.=20
<br>&gt; And they can say am I right or not.
<br>
<br>Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe someone
<br>who seems to be a man?
<br>
<br>Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then.
<br>Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway when you
<br>have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to
<br>a specific individual no matter the description.
<br>
<br>
<br>v4hn
<br></blockquote>

</div></div><div class=3D"yiv1152294700HOEnZb"><div class=3D"yiv1152294700h=
5">

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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu'o mi'e .=
aionys.<br><br>.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu=
 do zo'o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br>


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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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