Received: from mail-we0-f187.google.com ([74.125.82.187]:52519) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ur2ie-0001lo-8j for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:06:08 -0700 Received: by mail-we0-f187.google.com with SMTP id p58sf2052293wes.4 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:05:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=cni4W/Ffko0SmrWJCyGON6nwQlqdaJ7CcnggzjFB7QY=; b=mdgeHICWVWDz0pV3gW9bwuZQm/HQkgBgjOmvY0EdYYZENB+fnLs3Nws/IbvKKJzN40 jenaZea+o8AmgEGN6QcH1VrtFPXmIDQbdvH7SMEMWI1S22uAhz+Jtt4HYQ68S+1mP75x jL5EL2qLeaaeftyIw94ICMfnkVYpTodJdLEbEXOQt8eYHQUVDrPuED7nyJaQfS0EDxnB bc6WvUI8L4duhvtb1IIz9uRjVZdTsBqPqQZEcFoVFDWc26Za9Cs6MgevgNAPjDkFl4Zc QmAiAxOD8m7380YGBcj1H1Q+TesZMsqi3WKtvynmwObgg5W4bVZS+xfpCkSpjjWdHl66 tkWA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=cni4W/Ffko0SmrWJCyGON6nwQlqdaJ7CcnggzjFB7QY=; b=GO7O9csXunQjWY4kHUL5u+SeF03Jly3QWXf1argsz/Ae8Ipm4M3GGBjyBIlHokpAiB +HIN+4F4SVm6R+qepM6LRDwpIFsyb+dAytaDnnaW4p4mEnr8mQfljXtZoc4P/1ZyV1j8 aKbvZlgSsra4aAPDiGoCjAAq7YnAq3nWWgnqlEZIzUZfLTOx7DKp5U2pdwaiexmmRByI 6Q0NCUz82Vy5u1tcoIdfTguW+Ri319gsHXaybzT6FN7B5FJTHTsXuXVSiYeUDZLZSZ8B Kkvitu2dqrXBOaEG/3r+BYatrRomcEYqE0aqDbfdnB6JAi3BEFV4ViaPvpC/NujNaBoF miLg== X-Received: by 10.180.93.136 with SMTP id cu8mr251968wib.9.1372064743955; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:05:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.211.106 with SMTP id nb10ls809137wic.39.canary; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:05:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.204.72.1 with SMTP id k1mr1932783bkj.1.1372064743449; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x229.google.com (mail-lb0-x229.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c04::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id nl4si301077bkb.2.2013.06.24.02.05.43 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c04::229; Received: by mail-lb0-f169.google.com with SMTP id d10so381975lbj.0 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:05:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.131.103 with SMTP id ol7mr12104972lbb.70.1372064742962; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.29.10 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:05:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <14446569-dc85-4745-bf09-3c21f0e50c36@googlegroups.com> References: <5d7f238f-ff93-40ab-af24-fc6320d91b23@googlegroups.com> <199f9de9-f0bb-4cbb-bd8e-e124b45d5d1d@googlegroups.com> <20130623121840.GI32044@samsa.fritz.box> <2d346b25-b744-4f11-9fcb-65211de46c48@googlegroups.com> <14446569-dc85-4745-bf09-3c21f0e50c36@googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 03:05:42 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo} From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b3a86de9cf91904dfe2b767 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b3a86de9cf91904dfe2b767 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <= volishavas@gmail.com>wrote: > Here is new definition: > *lo* (LE) Generic article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first > argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers generically to an= y > or some individual or individuals that fit as the first argument of the > selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number of > individuals. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively > over such individuals.(Source: > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri) > > > Where did you find the word "veridical"? > http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/lo lo LE ...KU cmavo veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ... Under the xorlo reform, lo converts a selbri to a sumti in a rather generic way. In particular, lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda. - CLL 6.2 - jbovlaste > > =D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:02:39 UTC= +6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >> >> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5= =D7 wrote: >> >>> Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wrong. Cuz >>> it may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a man and I >>> think the person is a man. >>> He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all that is why I called >>> him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}. >>> Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meaning has >>> changed dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997. >>> >> >> Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always has been= / >> veridical- it must and can only be used for things which /actually are/ >> what you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/ non-veridi= cal. >> >> xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed how >> quantification works. >> >> >>> =D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 18:18:40 = UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7= =C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote: >>>> > I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a man. >>>> > You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la >>>> selpa'i. >>>> > And they can say am I right or not. >>>> >>>> Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe someone >>>> who seems to be a man? >>>> >>>> Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then. >>>> Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway when you >>>> have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to >>>> a specific individual no matter the description. >>>> >>>> >>>> v4hn >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7b3a86de9cf91904dfe2b767 Content-Type: text/html; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE= =C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volishavas@gmail.com>= wrote:
Here is new definition:
lo (LE)
Generic article.= It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting=20 expression refers generically to any or some individual or individuals=20 that fit as the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number of individuals. An outer quantifier can be=20 used to quantify distributively over such individuals.
(Source: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri)


Where did you find the word "veridical"?


=D0=CF=CE=C5=C4= =C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:02:39 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC= =D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 A= M, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis.= ..@gmail.com> wrote:
Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wrong. Cuz it = may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a man and I think = the person is a man.
He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all t= hat is why I called him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}.
Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meaning has chang= ed dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997.
Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always = has been/ veridical- it must and can only be used for things which /actuall= y are/ what you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/ no= n-veridical.

xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed how q= uantification works.
 
=D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 18:18:40= UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:= 50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote:
> I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a man.
> You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la s= elpa'i.=20
> And they can say am I right or not.

Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe someone
who seems to be a man?

Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then.
Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway when you
have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to
a specific individual no matter the description.


v4hn

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pi= lno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! = Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
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