Received: from mail-wg0-f57.google.com ([74.125.82.57]:32924) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ur391-0001wv-5R for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:33:15 -0700 Received: by mail-wg0-f57.google.com with SMTP id b12sf2050288wgh.22 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:33:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=OkMsdOo6d+5PqSWi2fW8nYGTho15VfPf4FWwjNGCthI=; b=OtFM7TC1o46Wl7CmDt1S0WjDwyrqVTPq3Z0X7WOAN6MnnfgmXQVEJntvurnwrGXj4/ MGkXaWpioPAI8969Qv98fo8Rxrh2yLQb8XS9NGbykoomKpR88Fu7meaJy9DB/AeB0gb3 9qFqyrwH+B4BEUiECS7sqwuoWjCCYIAhCzh01pfYnZnB0es4E4ewrbLeh/2h+oZNT8dB YBhA8Uy3nD/4vWthFIL5wQVxo9dBST1cIW3TyloAn4PHKNPgCcSA/yF48NjCXe3iQ7PX +he+++V/KzstpU2X88pqOtLCQqjXVl7S/5cwIktWrnZW8bstJeLIvTVxIWr885ErJR/c XFFw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=OkMsdOo6d+5PqSWi2fW8nYGTho15VfPf4FWwjNGCthI=; b=ZxWGFCI2I1GV1jDMucfbV3E+pfZ4tHNu+WLysVJ72yEoe1eBCGNp3+KsP6miYRYzUA cOnFsxq/fmKwxxGLYMGYyh91BVJqvI5xHLblVlNuCRfzDmNCYqSnaZPhXC+J+rlODQc8 NZ0pxxqPPP/iczkgyDEtm0YjYPQLwzPt2dGD3bLkv6jaCknI+dm7PSyj2PWlVr9c64tW hILZAcoDCQq0OJMvy2YMVneDex75jahaNEkcnWJSweAIMngFRKWsvOCT4kcF0XLQaDjb 3Tzhfa68jEZq+VYWxQdVSb7giRa0pkcaIKbw6ni9HrLPvMCLoef5PjgcCiRxZ83zf4pV 8s3Q== X-Received: by 10.180.10.234 with SMTP id l10mr225167wib.0.1372066380030; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:33:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.76.44 with SMTP id h12ls823999wiw.38.gmail; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:32:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.204.72.1 with SMTP id k1mr1935165bkj.1.1372066379500; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x22e.google.com (mail-lb0-x22e.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c04::22e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id nl4si306315bkb.2.2013.06.24.02.32.59 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::22e as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c04::22e; Received: by mail-lb0-f174.google.com with SMTP id x10so390983lbi.33 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:32:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.135.99 with SMTP id pr3mr12347653lbb.23.1372066379118; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.29.10 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:32:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5d7f238f-ff93-40ab-af24-fc6320d91b23@googlegroups.com> <199f9de9-f0bb-4cbb-bd8e-e124b45d5d1d@googlegroups.com> <20130623121840.GI32044@samsa.fritz.box> <2d346b25-b744-4f11-9fcb-65211de46c48@googlegroups.com> <14446569-dc85-4745-bf09-3c21f0e50c36@googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 03:32:58 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo} From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::22e as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01182dee22bdd204dfe319e0 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e01182dee22bdd204dfe319e0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:28 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <= volishavas@gmail.com>wrote: > Dictionary entry about {lo} shows CLL version (which has official, but ol= d > meaning) of {lo}. And noted how under xorlo reform {lo} is understood now= : > lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda. > That's new. > Also new definition see here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/** > BPFK+Section%3A+gadri > Dictionaries prefer to stick rather to official version (in CLL), but > offer a hand to whomever wants to know more of new changes made in Lojban= . > No one forces you to abandon the official way of understanding > {gadri}-meaning. > But if you want to know more of post-CLL changes to Lojban... > The "xorlo version" /IS/ the official version. > > > On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:05:42 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5= =D7 wrote: >> >>> Here is new definition: >>> *lo* (LE) Generic article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first >>> argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers generically to = any >>> or some individual or individuals that fit as the first argument of the >>> selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number of >>> individuals. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributively >>> over such individuals.(Source: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/** >>> BPFK+Section%3A+gadri >>> ) >>> >>> >>> Where did you find the word "veridical"? >>> >> >> http://vlasisku.lojban.org/**vlasisku/lo >> lo LE ...KU >> cmavo >> >> veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ... >> >> Under the xorlo reform, lo conve= rts a selbri to a sumti in a rather generic way. In particular, lo >> broda =3D zo'e noi broda. >> >> - CLL 6.2 >> - jbovlaste >> >> >> >>> >>> =D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:02:39 U= TC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5= =D7 wrote: >>>> >>>>> Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wrong. >>>>> Cuz it may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a man= and I >>>>> think the person is a man. >>>>> He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all that is why I calle= d >>>>> him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}. >>>>> Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meaning has >>>>> changed dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always has >>>> been/ veridical- it must and can only be used for things which /actual= ly >>>> are/ what you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/ >>>> non-veridical. >>>> >>>> xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed how >>>> quantification works. >>>> >>>> >>>>> =D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 18:18:4= 0 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA = =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote: >>>>>> > I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a man. >>>>>> > You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la >>>>>> selpa'i. >>>>>> > And they can say am I right or not. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe someone >>>>>> who seems to be a man? >>>>>> >>>>>> Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then. >>>>>> Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway when yo= u >>>>>> have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to >>>>>> a specific individual no matter the description. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> v4hn >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d >>>>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out<= https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>> >>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --089e01182dee22bdd204dfe319e0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:28 AM, =E1=CE= =C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volishavas@gmail.com>= wrote:
Dictionary entry about {lo} shows CLL version (which has official, but old = meaning) of {lo}. And noted how under xorlo reform {lo} is understood now: = lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda. That's new.
Also new definition see here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Se= ction%3A+gadri
Dictionaries prefer to stick rather to official versi= on (in CLL), but offer a hand to whomever wants to know more of new changes= made in Lojban.
No one forces you to abandon the official way of understanding {gadri}-mean= ing.
But if you want to know more of post-CLL changes to Lojban...

The "xorlo version" /IS/ the official version= .


On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:05:= 42 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE= =C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.= com> wrote:
Here is new definition:
lo (LE)
Generic article.= It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting=20 expression refers generically to any or some individual or individuals=20 that fit as the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number of individuals. An outer quantifier can be=20 used to quantify distributively over such individuals.
(Source: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri)


Where did you find the word "veridical"?

=
ht= tp://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/lo

lo LE …KU cmavo

veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ...

Under the xorlo reform, lo converts a selbri to a sumti in a rather = generic way. In particular, lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda.

 
<= br>=D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:02:= 39 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:=
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1= =D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.com= > wrote:
Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wrong. Cuz it = may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a man and I think = the person is a man.
He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all t= hat is why I called him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}.
Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meaning has chang= ed dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997.
Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always = has been/ veridical- it must and can only be used for things which /actuall= y are/ what you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/ no= n-veridical.

xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed how q= uantification works.
 
=D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 18:18:40= UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:= 50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote:
> I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a man.
> You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la s= elpa'i.=20
> And they can say am I right or not.

Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe someone
who seems to be a man?

Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then.
Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway when you
have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to
a specific individual no matter the description.


v4hn

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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