Received: from mail-pa0-f56.google.com ([209.85.220.56]:40513) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ur3H2-00020L-Dj for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:41:39 -0700 Received: by mail-pa0-f56.google.com with SMTP id tj12sf3555183pac.1 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:41:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ySzc7zANw288caVn6bpZftJYnsSDNafeUUCFrgD2mYY=; b=CIhBX5uZ/45xt9gFrjXOKWvq0Tc3hEOzGXf3zPjX5zhJ9RFBWNksougsuZ3SnqxCrY RyboHB8Oz5TfjDbqH+XNvyG8JP1XOx5/+4kpGaoZqQ7WNaxTsH0zp0VQLtfumLoqGZTe IVKTQmd4leGIcphdJ86IU2+rSvhwPswnTQd+S41+lELxHp/z/7ghErNG80xoQHg0H4vy 09yK/xuZuJ33vxxT1Ptfapw8rVRq3rSK4XZT3GJItrDsZs7Egu/rWh8hRg/euKSA9+qV 3IFUwBZWw0AU3krccmDqJNOmimbNAEEpL4rhky7Z85KA7nQAxhMEUvVPPM9AsPuGDN9Y zljg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ySzc7zANw288caVn6bpZftJYnsSDNafeUUCFrgD2mYY=; b=zhgYvIjBssxn/kvhrfC3+bLEHLzD1X152dCcD9TCQ9/gqKNqu25HpPuOeRuSHY03MU zP0o83Y7o9Pc2U5OBo9FEiad/IrDjLh0f1WVdcJXHoSX9twhx6kHU8sL4BH6a8EdUU1B AIYLK3nCK/Fa1iDAgQGhSQ673poP3GhGtpTbYPt4SG0jAwK8ntbx8rmZkvP0oZ+vVIMj FdnsaRSUnUnEq4LBXz1f+faOAYQlBm3ursmecsnztK6ljGmP7PbKvbgFGIyBY7+alKOB YrV8pARrel+WBU+RwZWIYDB5CMm/wJonjzuLUv2RN2NUAl9PY4JARLzvq7E+iOPUquMd lqvw== X-Received: by 10.49.36.199 with SMTP id s7mr501159qej.17.1372066877112; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:41:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.39.164 with SMTP id q4ls1989735qek.31.gmail; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:41:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.133.201 with SMTP id pe9mr499836qeb.34.1372066876557; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:41:16 -0700 (PDT) From: =?UTF-8?B?0JDQvdCw0YLQvtC70LjQuSDQk9Cw0YjQtdCy?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <629d0888-06e6-4668-839a-7b045c618eba@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <5d7f238f-ff93-40ab-af24-fc6320d91b23@googlegroups.com> <199f9de9-f0bb-4cbb-bd8e-e124b45d5d1d@googlegroups.com> <20130623121840.GI32044@samsa.fritz.box> <2d346b25-b744-4f11-9fcb-65211de46c48@googlegroups.com> <14446569-dc85-4745-bf09-3c21f0e50c36@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo} MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: volishavas@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2669_14370466.1372066876317" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_2669_14370466.1372066876317 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Only CLL is official, all the rest are just propositions. Quote from here:= =20 http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo ""xorlo" is our (the baupla fuzykamni's)=20 pet name for the gadri (articles, like "the" and "a" in English) BPFK=20 proposal written mostly by xorxes ." or from here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri Title says: "Proposed definitions". If you can read... On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:32:58 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:28 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7= > > wrote: > >> Dictionary entry about {lo} shows CLL version (which has official, but= =20 >> old meaning) of {lo}. And noted how under xorlo reform {lo} is understoo= d=20 >> now: lo broda =3D zo'e noi= =20 >> broda. That's new. >> Also new definition see here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/** >> BPFK+Section%3A+gadri >> Dictionaries prefer to stick rather to official version (in CLL), but=20 >> offer a hand to whomever wants to know more of new changes made in Lojba= n. >> No one forces you to abandon the official way of understanding=20 >> {gadri}-meaning. >> But if you want to know more of post-CLL changes to Lojban... >> > > The "xorlo version" /IS/ the official version.=20 > >> >> >> On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:05:42 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5= =D7 wrote: >>> >>>> Here is new definition: >>>> *lo* (LE) Generic article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first= =20 >>>> argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers generically to= any=20 >>>> or some individual or individuals that fit as the first argument of th= e=20 >>>> selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number of=20 >>>> individuals. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributivel= y=20 >>>> over such individuals.(Source: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/** >>>> BPFK+Section%3A+gadri >>>> ) >>>> >>>> >>>> Where did you find the word "veridical"? >>>> >>> >>> http://vlasisku.lojban.org/**vlasisku/lo >>> lo LE ...KU=20 >>> cmavo=20 >>> >>> veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ... >>> >>> Under the xorlo reform, lo conv= erts a selbri to a sumti in a rather generic way. In particular, lo=20 >>> broda =3D zo'e noi broda. >>> >>> - CLL 6.2 =20 >>> - jbovlaste >>> >>> =20 >>> >>>> >>>> =D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:02:39 = UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB= =C5=D7 wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wrong.= =20 >>>>>> Cuz it may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a ma= n and I=20 >>>>>> think the person is a man. >>>>>> He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all that is why I=20 >>>>>> called him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}. >>>>>> Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meaning ha= s=20 >>>>>> changed dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always has= =20 >>>>> been/ veridical- it must and can only be used for things which /actua= lly=20 >>>>> are/ what you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/=20 >>>>> non-veridical. >>>>> >>>>> xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed how= =20 >>>>> quantification works. >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>>>> =D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 18:18:= 40 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn=20 >>>>>> =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA = =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote:=20 >>>>>>> > I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a man= .=20 >>>>>>> > You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la= =20 >>>>>>> selpa'i.=20 >>>>>>> > And they can say am I right or not.=20 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe someon= e=20 >>>>>>> who seems to be a man?=20 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then.=20 >>>>>>> Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway when= =20 >>>>>>> you=20 >>>>>>> have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to=20 >>>>>>> a specific individual no matter the description.=20 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> v4hn=20 >>>>>>> >>>>>> --=20 >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= =20 >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,=20 >>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban >>>>>> . >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out= >>>>>> . >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --=20 >>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> >>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> >>>> --=20 >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= =20 >>>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>>> . >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --=20 >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n=20 >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> =20 >> =20 >> > > > > --=20 > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_2669_14370466.1372066876317 Content-Type: text/html; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Only CLL is official, all the rest are just propositions. Quote from here: = http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo
""xorlo" is our (the baupla fuzykamni's) pet name for the gadri (articles, l= ike "the" and "a" in English) BPFK proposal written mostly by xorxes."=
or from here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri
Title= says: "Proposed definitions".

If you can read...


On Mond= ay, June 24, 2013 3:32:58 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 = at 3:28 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <= volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dictionary entry about {lo} shows CLL version (which has official, but old = meaning) of {lo}. And noted how under xorlo reform {lo} is understood now: = lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda. That's new.
Also new definition see here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri
Dictionaries prefer to stick rather to official = version (in CLL), but offer a hand to whomever wants to know more of new ch= anges made in Lojban.
No one forces you to abandon the official way of understanding {gadri}-mean= ing.
But if you want to know more of post-CLL changes to Lojban...

The "xorlo version" /IS/ the official version.


On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:05:= 42 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE= =C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.= com> wrote:
Here is new definition:
lo (LE)
Generic article.= It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting=20 expression refers generically to any or some individual or individuals=20 that fit as the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number of individuals. An outer quantifier can be=20 used to quantify distributively over such individuals.
(Source: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri)


Where did you find the word "veridical"?


http://vlasi= sku.lojban.org/vlasisku/lo

lo LE …KU cmavo

veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ...

Under the xorlo reform, lo converts a selbri to a sumti in a rather = generic way. In particular, lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda.

 
<= br>=D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:02:= 39 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:=
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1= =D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.com= > wrote:
Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wrong. Cuz it = may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a man and I think = the person is a man.
He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all t= hat is why I called him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}.
Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meaning has chang= ed dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997.
Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always has been/ = veridical- it must and can only be used for things which /actually are/ wha= t you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/ non-veridical.
xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed how q= uantification works.
 
=D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 18:18:40= UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:= 50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote:
> I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a man.
> You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la s= elpa'i.=20
> And they can say am I right or not.

Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe someone
who seems to be a man?

Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then.
Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway when you
have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to
a specific individual no matter the description.


v4hn

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--
= mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.lu= k. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<= br>

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--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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