Received: from mail-wi0-f184.google.com ([209.85.212.184]:57711) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ur3Jm-00022f-Ew for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:44:23 -0700 Received: by mail-wi0-f184.google.com with SMTP id c10sf662944wiw.21 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:44:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=o0X7GyZi94yAPTVEWCyLzgJ1R00Qu7klHXE3hCaNPjQ=; b=Y8mKiTL2OrUoVTBF/cyYwavr0vEMRNrqIQJ5JxwSq2WnaWgs/PCe/b8Js0RZbYF4mP mQNb8J6uBu+a4Ir3GuTDQQndfwmeZy31V7w1QHLaOg/UOGvJSN1m289phQGQcAZRgVGX GBMkAYaby8OlKY37azn5HsJr+wesgjt6OVDeKIXXC54cppteOo22j0spKC9a/1zFo/ju /n0sJNaCI6DyYvi3fSZLhJtRYPtz7tK+p9QKkQavRlD4wxt/svwQHHBQM6yOfwWAbmwX B1uuDwKIWgQybvTz+7kNVlZurx6SD57+M45CkHSFn+kKIBD9fOsWsXwDE6FmxBmIJhKu rgnA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=o0X7GyZi94yAPTVEWCyLzgJ1R00Qu7klHXE3hCaNPjQ=; b=iACW0wh0M1HBuUu73MUJ/Rbjmy8wjmZXql8BC8tyPk6uhtGjybkBX9fMkRBw6flj/s cicHEQJBs4uM3HuS3lieVkRnVi2Hj0cJDQeQgiaVvijWQ3svCgIPOC7qBQ5sjNyHPSMB Wmw0xgNl77sysUcBb94sZu0/O8TZJqUUeR78S9n6VvANhlRdf6N9ZQ7KnFGEC9EfnqId HWrFSNiL39Sv4DQ5ehdDc9hJqs18MaMpx0w0WT0X/iB6sVxXFqtjONA1QSKmsPISEJq6 M+FWJCTughXH/HVrISiHT17F1c8ArH4M1W5ZZ6/zzWhZaVw712pPEZMyHmO9xZ2j3mVh FhwQ== X-Received: by 10.180.189.106 with SMTP id gh10mr257460wic.10.1372067047382; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:44:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.39.226 with SMTP id s2ls700595wik.44.gmail; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:44:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.204.230.12 with SMTP id jk12mr189596bkb.8.1372067046835; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x235.google.com (mail-la0-x235.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c03::235]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id nl4si308416bkb.2.2013.06.24.02.44.06 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::235 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c03::235; Received: by mail-la0-f53.google.com with SMTP id fs12so9912605lab.26 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:44:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.44.133 with SMTP id e5mr11270924lam.15.1372067046450; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.29.10 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:44:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <629d0888-06e6-4668-839a-7b045c618eba@googlegroups.com> References: <5d7f238f-ff93-40ab-af24-fc6320d91b23@googlegroups.com> <199f9de9-f0bb-4cbb-bd8e-e124b45d5d1d@googlegroups.com> <20130623121840.GI32044@samsa.fritz.box> <2d346b25-b744-4f11-9fcb-65211de46c48@googlegroups.com> <14446569-dc85-4745-bf09-3c21f0e50c36@googlegroups.com> <629d0888-06e6-4668-839a-7b045c618eba@googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 03:44:06 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo} From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::235 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0160a478e96ce104dfe34077 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e0160a478e96ce104dfe34077 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <= volishavas@gmail.com>wrote: > Only CLL is official, all the rest are just propositions. Quote from here= : > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo > ""xorlo" is our (the baupla fuzykamni's) > pet name for the gadri (articles, like "the" and "a" in English) BPFK > proposal written mostly by xorxes ." > or from here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri > Title says: "Proposed definitions". > > If you can read... > From the /exact/ /same/ /page/: "The gadri proposal (which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0 by the BPFK" xorlo was unanimously made official by the BPFK way back in 2004. And stop being a dick. > > > On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:32:58 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:28 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5= =D7 wrote: >> >>> Dictionary entry about {lo} shows CLL version (which has official, but >>> old meaning) of {lo}. And noted how under xorlo reform {lo} is understo= od >>> now: lo broda =3D zo'e noi >>> broda. That's new. >>> Also new definition see here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**BPF** >>> K+Section%3A+gadri >>> Dictionaries prefer to stick rather to official version (in CLL), but >>> offer a hand to whomever wants to know more of new changes made in Lojb= an. >>> No one forces you to abandon the official way of understanding >>> {gadri}-meaning. >>> But if you want to know more of post-CLL changes to Lojban... >>> >> >> The "xorlo version" /IS/ the official version. >> >>> >>> >>> On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:05:42 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5= =D7 wrote: >>>> >>>>> Here is new definition: >>>>> *lo* (LE) Generic article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first >>>>> argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers generically t= o any >>>>> or some individual or individuals that fit as the first argument of t= he >>>>> selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number of >>>>> individuals. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributive= ly >>>>> over such individuals.(Source: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**BPF** >>>>> K+Section%3A+gadri = ) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Where did you find the word "veridical"? >>>>> >>>> >>>> http://vlasisku.lojban.org/**vla**sisku/lo >>>> lo LE ...KU >>>> cmavo >>>> >>>> veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ... >>>> >>>> Under the xorlo reform, lo con= verts a selbri to a sumti in a rather generic way. In particular, lo >>>> broda =3D zo'e noi broda. >>>> >>>> - CLL 6.2 >>>> - jbovlaste >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> =D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:02:39= UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys >>>>> =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB= =C5=D7 wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wrong. >>>>>>> Cuz it may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a m= an and I >>>>>>> think the person is a man. >>>>>>> He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all that is why I >>>>>>> called him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}. >>>>>>> Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meaning >>>>>>> has changed dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always has >>>>>> been/ veridical- it must and can only be used for things which /actu= ally >>>>>> are/ what you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/ >>>>>> non-veridical. >>>>>> >>>>>> xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed ho= w >>>>>> quantification works. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> =D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 18:18= :40 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn >>>>>>> =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA= =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote: >>>>>>>> > I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a >>>>>>>> man. >>>>>>>> > You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la >>>>>>>> selpa'i. >>>>>>>> > And they can say am I right or not. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe >>>>>>>> someone >>>>>>>> who seems to be a man? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then. >>>>>>>> Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway when >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to >>>>>>>> a specific individual no matter the description. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> v4hn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group****/lojban >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**** >>>>>>> ps/opt_out . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>> >>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d >>>>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out<= https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>> >>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --089e0160a478e96ce104dfe34077 Content-Type: text/html; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:41 AM, =E1=CE= =C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volishavas@gmail.com>= wrote:
Only CLL is official, all the rest are just propositions. Quote from here: = h= ttp://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo
""xorlo" i= s our (the baupla fuzykamni's) pet name f= or the gadri (articles, like "the" and "a" in English) = BPFK proposal written mostly by xorxes."
or from here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri
T= itle says: "Proposed definitions".

If you can read...
<= /blockquote>

From the /exact/ /same/ /page/:
"The gadri proposal (which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 t= o 0 by the BPFK"

xorlo was unanimously made official by the BPFK way back in 2004.

And stop being a dick.
 
=

On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:32:58 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:28 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <= span dir=3D"ltr"><volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dictionary entry about {lo} shows CLL version (which has official, but old = meaning) of {lo}. And noted how under xorlo reform {lo} is understood now: = lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda. That's new.
Also new definition see here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPF<= /u>K+Section%3A+gadri
Dictionaries prefer to stick rather to officia= l version (in CLL), but offer a hand to whomever wants to know more of new = changes made in Lojban.
No one forces you to abandon the official way of understanding {gadri}-mean= ing.
But if you want to know more of post-CLL changes to Lojban...

The "xorlo version" /IS/ the official version= .


On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:05:= 42 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE= =C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.= com> wrote:
Here is new definition:
lo (LE)
Generic article.= It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting=20 expression refers generically to any or some individual or individuals=20 that fit as the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number of individuals. An outer quantifier can be=20 used to quantify distributively over such individuals.
(Source: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri)


Where did you find the word "veridical"?

=
ht= tp://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/lo

lo LE …KU cmavo

veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ...

Under the xorlo reform, lo converts a selbri to a sumti in a rather = generic way. In particular, lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda.

 
<= br>=D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:02:= 39 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:=
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1= =D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.com= > wrote:
Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wrong. Cuz it = may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a man and I think = the person is a man.
He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all t= hat is why I called him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}.
Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meaning has chang= ed dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997.
Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always = has been/ veridical- it must and can only be used for things which /actuall= y are/ what you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/ no= n-veridical.

xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed how q= uantification works.
 
=D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 18:18:40= UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:= 50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote:
> I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a man.
> You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la s= elpa'i.=20
> And they can say am I right or not.

Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe someone
who seems to be a man?

Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then.
Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway when you
have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to
a specific individual no matter the description.


v4hn

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--
= mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa = bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am yo= ur father. :D )

--
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
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