Received: from mail-pb0-f55.google.com ([209.85.160.55]:60939) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ur3u5-0002HT-EO for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 03:22:04 -0700 Received: by mail-pb0-f55.google.com with SMTP id ro2sf3550559pbb.20 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 03:21:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=i/SQHw+sjfEqSVkXtPsel32+oPjf6bkNb6G3iu6GZwc=; b=TD60e2OgfQ8bM2DsX2BhmuSK8ZPVK4/gJSGbc0iSpJxW5n653JQ2PKKOVVl8/VlBsI 7368tgoD5hcsmc4bTtd+tThTwpiz4QN20KDMl/Cj00IJHwiU++LY2FdxccRGY5cpPD3o 1QXlXhWGu3pX4PZhVZ8eExAuLMOs1nBhY6uwplNMuWruistViVJJ2sDkRNYFzGSuEgn9 pHEnMp7BxX4Nqtb0VAvsK1X1hwEZdNm2dOGbaFBnoU1EemP9cXsFGeArpaGIjXKP4q1v cztf9jwL2KN94w2Mg8Qh1H7Y9t5GDWLC178jjEPGZ0BGbHN7hkuHiM7HBP+5IHAZzo0F cWuA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=i/SQHw+sjfEqSVkXtPsel32+oPjf6bkNb6G3iu6GZwc=; b=Dg55ntYgQZlSJ/V/SJPon3Vq+FmDBNoCpGDeKeKWBmQy6saV8E1l2n7t5AhXxwufvz 5QAwTforOMVnJ6k53BToanQGDwBti4ZmrpoC0S189ZAAP51wGJ2cehF6775XfgeqoIUO +NkqTgzvvjzWu0mAzKb0f7mU98/D6F105a1azmtkFAHVV9Jsk1z/37LVbNLJFyZofpVo 5gQxptm3asZOrlLQl7kNzChMu5eJBEZOE4EfUW4BUHr5hvv+jFyJpVaIIZm/gBfnj2Yq 6g1b79rQYxLTsfHeR2MQH61jr+6UeDBwgPn5yfA1YqTEY3osMmT0hXk41PK+HsgiVyFt 3s3Q== X-Received: by 10.49.35.109 with SMTP id g13mr501126qej.1.1372069298344; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 03:21:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.39.201 with SMTP id r9ls1927008qek.72.gmail; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 03:21:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.35.109 with SMTP id g13mr501125qej.1.1372069297861; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 03:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 03:21:37 -0700 (PDT) From: =?UTF-8?B?0JDQvdCw0YLQvtC70LjQuSDQk9Cw0YjQtdCy?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <0e7c3d42-ca19-4edc-b121-8d9084ecd7fc@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <5d7f238f-ff93-40ab-af24-fc6320d91b23@googlegroups.com> <199f9de9-f0bb-4cbb-bd8e-e124b45d5d1d@googlegroups.com> <20130623121840.GI32044@samsa.fritz.box> <2d346b25-b744-4f11-9fcb-65211de46c48@googlegroups.com> <14446569-dc85-4745-bf09-3c21f0e50c36@googlegroups.com> <629d0888-06e6-4668-839a-7b045c618eba@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo} MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: volishavas@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_318_17226716.1372069297576" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_318_17226716.1372069297576 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quote: "which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0 by the BPFK,=20 although it is technically subject to future changes until we declare=20 ourselves done". And if you're right about xorlo then why does {lo}-entry contains old=20 version (veridical one)? And if you think that "veridical" is the right and from xorlo-update, then= =20 where "veridical" word in in-xorlo {lo} definition? And why then {lo}-entry says underneath "Under the xorlo reform, loconverts a selbri to a sumti in a rather ge= neric way. In particular, lo=20 broda =3D zo'e noi broda.".=20 Simply to repeat??? On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:44:06 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7= > > wrote: > >> Only CLL is official, all the rest are just propositions. Quote from=20 >> here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo >> ""xorlo" is our (the baupla fuzykamni's)=20 >> pet name for the gadri (articles, like "the" and "a" in English) BPFK=20 >> proposal written mostly by xorxes ." >> or from here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri >> Title says: "Proposed definitions". >> >> If you can read... >> > > From the /exact/ /same/ /page/: > "The gadri proposal (wh= ich has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0 by the BPFK" > > xorlo was unanimously made official by the BPFK way back in 2004. > > > And stop being a dick. > =20 > >> >> >> On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:32:58 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:28 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5= =D7 wrote: >>> >>>> Dictionary entry about {lo} shows CLL version (which has official, but= =20 >>>> old meaning) of {lo}. And noted how under xorlo reform {lo} is underst= ood=20 >>>> now: lo broda =3D zo'e no= i=20 >>>> broda. That's new. >>>> Also new definition see here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**BPF** >>>> K+Section%3A+gadri >>>> Dictionaries prefer to stick rather to official version (in CLL), but= =20 >>>> offer a hand to whomever wants to know more of new changes made in Loj= ban. >>>> No one forces you to abandon the official way of understanding=20 >>>> {gadri}-meaning. >>>> But if you want to know more of post-CLL changes to Lojban... >>>> >>> >>> The "xorlo version" /IS/ the official version.=20 >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:05:42 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB= =C5=D7 wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Here is new definition: >>>>>> *lo* (LE) Generic article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first= =20 >>>>>> argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers generically = to any=20 >>>>>> or some individual or individuals that fit as the first argument of = the=20 >>>>>> selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number of=20 >>>>>> individuals. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distributiv= ely=20 >>>>>> over such individuals.(Source: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**BPF** >>>>>> K+Section%3A+gadri >>>>>> )=20 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Where did you find the word "veridical"? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://vlasisku.lojban.org/**vla**sisku/lo >>>>> lo LE ...KU=20 >>>>> cmavo=20 >>>>> >>>>> veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ... >>>>> >>>>> Under the xorlo reform, lo co= nverts a selbri to a sumti in a rather generic way. In particular, lo=20 >>>>> broda =3D zo'e noi broda= . >>>>> >>>>> - CLL 6.2 =20 >>>>> - jbovlaste >>>>> >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> =D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:02:3= 9 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys=20 >>>>>> =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB= =C5=D7 wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wrong= .=20 >>>>>>>> Cuz it may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a = man and I=20 >>>>>>>> think the person is a man. >>>>>>>> He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all that is why I=20 >>>>>>>> called him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}. >>>>>>>> Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meaning= =20 >>>>>>>> has changed dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always has= =20 >>>>>>> been/ veridical- it must and can only be used for things which /act= ually=20 >>>>>>> are/ what you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/= =20 >>>>>>> non-veridical. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed= =20 >>>>>>> how quantification works. >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> =D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 18:1= 8:40 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn=20 >>>>>>>> =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9= =CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote:=20 >>>>>>>>> > I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a= =20 >>>>>>>>> man.=20 >>>>>>>>> > You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or l= a=20 >>>>>>>>> selpa'i.=20 >>>>>>>>> > And they can say am I right or not.=20 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe=20 >>>>>>>>> someone=20 >>>>>>>>> who seems to be a man?=20 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then.=20 >>>>>>>>> Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway when= =20 >>>>>>>>> you=20 >>>>>>>>> have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to= =20 >>>>>>>>> a specific individual no matter the description.=20 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> v4hn=20 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --=20 >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= =20 >>>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,= =20 >>>>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group****/lojban >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**** >>>>>>>> ps/opt_out . >>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --=20 >>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'= o >>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>> >>>>>> --=20 >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= =20 >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,=20 >>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban >>>>>> . >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out= >>>>>> . >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --=20 >>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> >>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> >>>> --=20 >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= =20 >>>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>>> . >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --=20 >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n=20 >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> =20 >> =20 >> > > > > --=20 > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_318_17226716.1372069297576 Content-Type: text/html; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quote: "which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0 by the BPFK, altho= ugh=20 it is technically subject to future changes until we declare ourselves=20 done".
And if you're right about xorlo then why does {lo}-entry contains= old version (veridical one)?
And if you think that "veridical" is the r= ight and from xorlo-update, then where "veridical" word in in-xorlo {lo} de= finition?
And why then {lo}-entry says underneath "Under the xorlo refor= m, lo converts a sel= bri to a sumti in a rather generic way. In particular, lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda.". Simpl= y to repeat???

On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:44:06 PM UTC+6, aionys wro= te:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB= =C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.com> wrote:=
Only CLL is official, all the rest are just propositions. Quote from here: = h= ttp://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo
""xorlo" is our (the= baupla fuzykamni's) pet name for the gadri (= articles, like "the" and "a" in English) BPFK proposal written mostly by xorxes."
or from here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri=
Title says: "Proposed definitions".

If you can read...

From the /exact/ /same/ /page/:
"The gadri proposal (which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to = 0 by the BPFK"

xorlo was unanimously made official by the BPFK way back in 2004.

And stop being a dick.
 
=

On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:32:58 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:28 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <= span dir=3D"ltr"><volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dictionary entry about {lo} shows CLL version (which has official, but old = meaning) of {lo}. And noted how under xorlo reform {lo} is understood now: = lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda. That's new.
Also new definition see here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPF<= /u>K+Section%3A+gadri
Dictionaries prefer to stick rather to of= ficial version (in CLL), but offer a hand to whomever wants to know more of= new changes made in Lojban.
No one forces you to abandon the official way of understanding {gadri}-mean= ing.
But if you want to know more of post-CLL changes to Lojban...

The "xorlo version" /IS/ the official version.


On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:05:= 42 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE= =C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.= com> wrote:
Here is new definition:
lo (LE)
Generic article.= It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting=20 expression refers generically to any or some individual or individuals=20 that fit as the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number of individuals. An outer quantifier can be=20 used to quantify distributively over such individuals.
(Source: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri)


Where did you find the word "veridical"?


http://vlasi= sku.lojban.org/vlasisku/lo

lo LE …KU cmavo

veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ...

Under the xorlo reform, lo converts a selbri to a sumti in a rather = generic way. In particular, lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda.

 
<= br>=D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:02:= 39 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:=
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1= =D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.com= > wrote:
Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wrong. Cuz it = may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a man and I think = the person is a man.
He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all t= hat is why I called him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}.
Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meaning has chang= ed dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997.
Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always has been/ = veridical- it must and can only be used for things which /actually are/ wha= t you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/ non-veridical.
xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed how q= uantification works.
 
=D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 18:18:40= UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:= 50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote:
> I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a man.
> You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la s= elpa'i.=20
> And they can say am I right or not.

Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe someone
who seems to be a man?

Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then.
Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway when you
have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to
a specific individual no matter the description.


v4hn

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--
= mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.lu= k. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<= br>

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--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 



--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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