Received: from mail-ve0-f190.google.com ([209.85.128.190]:44674) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ur51g-0002kX-EM for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 04:33:55 -0700 Received: by mail-ve0-f190.google.com with SMTP id d10sf3699320vea.27 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 04:33:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=nTyBJsvBNJ5kC22dm+t6CLKiWV1nwWuKiV00hRPEuQs=; b=PeJk/bG4jq/FOJi1fVd2eEKal31cHDpENxMpibgGLpzz8Sb+g/dT6f0R8FPzTylB1A wItkm1z2g0r5h87+shpbEp06O1+RdHeXKXxsn2dTvvS3urH7cfUzHUaM8f01FWNuTZJD 5Tm7jkjWqj/TKnPIyWG9HRM/HMrqaAelICQ2S78FFtHzXPPAPuS1UhvTWzBTxeE2/btP yWGz3OCGZMS3YS0LrI5YMXN7sqS+p/VRqC1bsTi1d0etuHTpeT6vnMVhpig5+Q5NTpJN bVJc8s6XSZC+iRygtwmNJIPO4yQyZ2JIu3470hlm1S056kJJCtQCLXDda3f9+nKVXug2 TT3A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=nTyBJsvBNJ5kC22dm+t6CLKiWV1nwWuKiV00hRPEuQs=; b=gWFijTjaTHJXpt6v8RoEqewgG0I/2GibmTuYX2nH6Mz5MJ26GrEuBKDIZefm52A3VK Dwyy7c5xOYT9JSqgr78upGHzeIPGzOfR5hu75ES0JB8Psl7LjhGo1NxYnRJj4WJIw4v7 51wodzYfBEEjkYk2FE6sjHAbd1E6hY+k8gFTr8TDD1A76cYLXzPVKWwuOrHEyFjkztTc JNzb4pBiywK7Hrv942Es4mQ+d+TdzT1WbHTaek/1JEt3+bReLjkLdOx9BbW3Qd6pTHux G/ieB7Lk3RBr7D1+xoqQdWeBmBP0M0x/NeyRi0LUoyHTCe3T8oTTisoOtKuRA7XMtvkW Wm/w== X-Received: by 10.49.101.78 with SMTP id fe14mr513870qeb.13.1372073613175; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 04:33:33 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.26.137 with SMTP id l9ls1891653qeg.35.gmail; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 04:33:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.11.140 with SMTP id q12mr541835qeb.9.1372073612414; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 04:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 04:33:31 -0700 (PDT) From: =?UTF-8?B?0JDQvdCw0YLQvtC70LjQuSDQk9Cw0YjQtdCy?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <5e8808f6-7bf5-4276-a814-3877f177e6b9@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <5d7f238f-ff93-40ab-af24-fc6320d91b23@googlegroups.com> <199f9de9-f0bb-4cbb-bd8e-e124b45d5d1d@googlegroups.com> <20130623121840.GI32044@samsa.fritz.box> <2d346b25-b744-4f11-9fcb-65211de46c48@googlegroups.com> <14446569-dc85-4745-bf09-3c21f0e50c36@googlegroups.com> <629d0888-06e6-4668-839a-7b045c618eba@googlegroups.com> <0e7c3d42-ca19-4edc-b121-8d9084ecd7fc@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo} MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: volishavas@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2862_6857116.1372073612117" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_2862_6857116.1372073612117 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You've said: now it means "something(s) which actually are broda". My translation of {zo'e noi broda} is: "something, which are broda". Where= =20 did you get "actually"??? On Monday, June 24, 2013 5:24:16 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 4:21 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7= > > wrote: > >> Quote: "which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0 by the BPFK,=20 >> although it is technically subject to future changes until we declare=20 >> ourselves done". >> And if you're right about xorlo then why does {lo}-entry contains old=20 >> version (veridical one)? >> > > Because xorlo doesn't change the fact that lo is the veridical article an= d=20 > le is the non-veridical one. > =20 > >> And if you think that "veridical" is the right and from xorlo-update,=20 >> then where "veridical" word in in-xorlo {lo} definition? >> > > Nowhere, because xorlo only describes the /changes/ it makes. > =20 > >> And why then {lo}-entry says underneath "Under the xorlo reform, loconverts a selbri to a sumti in a rather= generic way. In particular, lo=20 >> broda =3D zo'e noi broda.".= =20 >> Simply to repeat??? >> > > Because pre-xorlo {lo} had default quantifiers. {lo broda} /used/ to mean= =20 > "at least one of all existing things which actually are broda", now it=20 > means "something(s) which actually are broda" > =20 > >> >> On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:44:06 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5= =D7 wrote: >>> >>>> Only CLL is official, all the rest are just propositions. Quote from= =20 >>>> here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**How+to+use+xorlo >>>> ""xorlo" is our (the baupla fuzykamni's)=20 >>>> pet name for the gadri (articles, like "the" and "a" in English) BPFK= =20 >>>> proposal written mostly by xorxes .= " >>>> or from here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**BPFK+Section%3A+gadri >>>> Title says: "Proposed definitions". >>>> >>>> If you can read... >>>> >>> >>> From the /exact/ /same/ /page/: >>> "The gadri proposal (= which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0 by the BPFK" >>> >>> xorlo was unanimously made official by the BPFK way back in 2004. >>> >>> >>> And stop being a dick. >>> =20 >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:32:58 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:28 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB= =C5=D7 wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dictionary entry about {lo} shows CLL version (which has official,= =20 >>>>>> but old meaning) of {lo}. And noted how under xorlo reform {lo} is= =20 >>>>>> understood now: lo broda =3D zo'enoi broda. That's new. >>>>>> Also new definition see here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**BPF**** >>>>>> K+Section%3A+gadri >>>>>> Dictionaries prefer to stick rather to official version (in CLL), bu= t=20 >>>>>> offer a hand to whomever wants to know more of new changes made in L= ojban. >>>>>> No one forces you to abandon the official way of understanding=20 >>>>>> {gadri}-meaning. >>>>>> But if you want to know more of post-CLL changes to Lojban... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The "xorlo version" /IS/ the official version.=20 >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:05:42 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB= =C5=D7 wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here is new definition: >>>>>>>> *lo* (LE) Generic article. It converts a selbri, selecting its=20 >>>>>>>> first argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers gene= rically=20 >>>>>>>> to any or some individual or individuals that fit as the first arg= ument of=20 >>>>>>>> the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number= of=20 >>>>>>>> individuals. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distribut= ively=20 >>>>>>>> over such individuals.(Source: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**BPF***= * >>>>>>>> K+Section%3A+gadri >>>>>>>> )=20 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Where did you find the word "veridical"? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://vlasisku.lojban.org/**vla****sisku/lo >>>>>>> lo LE ...KU=20 >>>>>>> cmavo=20 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Under the xorlo reform, lo = converts a selbri to a sumti in a rather generic way. In particular, lo=20 >>>>>>> broda =3D zo'e noi bro= da. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - CLL 6.2 =20 >>>>>>> - jbovlaste >>>>>>> >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> =D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:02= :39 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys=20 >>>>>>>> =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1= =DB=C5=D7 < >>>>>>>>> volis...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be=20 >>>>>>>>>> wrong. Cuz it may be that I just now saw a woman, which I descri= bed as a=20 >>>>>>>>>> man and I think the person is a man. >>>>>>>>>> He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all that is why I= =20 >>>>>>>>>> called him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}. >>>>>>>>>> Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meanin= g=20 >>>>>>>>>> has changed dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always= =20 >>>>>>>>> has been/ veridical- it must and can only be used for things whic= h=20 >>>>>>>>> /actually are/ what you're describing them as. {le} is and /alway= s has=20 >>>>>>>>> been/ non-veridical. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed= =20 >>>>>>>>> how quantification works. >>>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> =D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 18= :18:40 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn=20 >>>>>>>>>> =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9= =CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote:=20 >>>>>>>>>>> > I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a= =20 >>>>>>>>>>> man.=20 >>>>>>>>>>> > You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or= =20 >>>>>>>>>>> la selpa'i.=20 >>>>>>>>>>> > And they can say am I right or not.=20 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe=20 >>>>>>>>>>> someone=20 >>>>>>>>>>> who seems to be a man?=20 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then.=20 >>>>>>>>>>> Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway=20 >>>>>>>>>>> when you=20 >>>>>>>>>>> have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to= =20 >>>>>>>>>>> a specific individual no matter the description.=20 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> v4hn=20 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --=20 >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the=20 >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it= ,=20 >>>>>>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group******/lojba= n >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou****** >>>>>>>>>> ps/opt_out . >>>>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --=20 >>>>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do= =20 >>>>>>>>> zo'o >>>>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --=20 >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= =20 >>>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,= =20 >>>>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group****/lojban >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**** >>>>>>>> ps/opt_out . >>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --=20 >>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'= o >>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>> >>>>>> --=20 >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= =20 >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,=20 >>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban >>>>>> . >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out= >>>>>> . >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --=20 >>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> >>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> >>>> --=20 >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= =20 >>>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>>> . >>>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --=20 >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n=20 >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> =20 >> =20 >> > > > > --=20 > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_2862_6857116.1372073612117 Content-Type: text/html; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You've said: now it means "something(s) which actually are broda".
My tr= anslation of {zo'e noi broda} is: "something, which are broda". Where did y= ou get "actually"???

On Monday, June 24, 2013 5:24:16 PM UTC+6, aion= ys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 4:21 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7= =C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.com> = wrote:
Quote: "which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0 by the BPFK, altho= ugh=20 it is technically subject to future changes until we declare ourselves=20 done".
And if you're right about xorlo then why does {lo}-entry contains= old version (veridical one)?

Because xorlo doesn'= t change the fact that lo is the veridical article and le is the non-veridi= cal one.
 
And if you think that "veridical= " is the right and from xorlo-update, then where "veridical" word in in-xor= lo {lo} definition?

Nowhere, because xorlo only describes the /changes/ i= t makes.
 
And why then {lo}-en= try says underneath "Under the xorlo reform, lo converts a selbri to a sumti = in a rather generic way. In particular, lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda.". Si= mply to repeat???

Because pre-xorlo {lo} had default quantifiers. {lo b= roda} /used/ to mean "at least one of all existing things which actually ar= e broda", now it means "something(s) which actually are broda"
 

On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:4= 4:06 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:41 AM, =E1=CE= =C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.= com> wrote:
Only CLL is official, all the rest are just propositions. Quote from here: = h= ttp://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo
""xorlo" is o= ur (the baupla fuzykamni's) pet name for the = gadri (articles, like "the" and "a" in English) BPFK proposal written mostl= y by xorxes."
or from here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+ga= dri
Title says: "Proposed definitions".

If you can read...

From the /exact/ /same/ /page/:
"The gadri proposal (which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to = 0 by the BPFK"

xorlo was unanimously made official by the BPFK way back in 2004.

And stop being a dick.
 
=

On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:32:58 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:28 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <= span dir=3D"ltr"><volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dictionary entry about {lo} shows CLL version (which has official, but old = meaning) of {lo}. And noted how under xorlo reform {lo} is understood now: = lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda. That's new.
Also new definition see here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPF<= /u>K+Section%3A+gadri
Dictionaries prefer to stick rathe= r to official version (in CLL), but offer a hand to whomever wants to know = more of new changes made in Lojban.
No one forces you to abandon the official way of understanding {gadri}-mean= ing.
But if you want to know more of post-CLL changes to Lojban...

The "xorlo version" /IS/ the official version.


On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:05:= 42 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE= =C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.= com> wrote:
Here is new definition:
lo (LE)
Generic article.= It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting=20 expression refers generically to any or some individual or individuals=20 that fit as the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number of individuals. An outer quantifier can be=20 used to quantify distributively over such individuals.
(Source: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri= )


Where did you find the word "veridical"?


http://vlasi= sku.lojban.org/vlasisku/lo

lo LE …KU cmavo

veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ...

Under the xorlo reform, lo converts a selbri to a sumti in a rather = generic way. In particular, lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda.

 
<= br>=D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:02:= 39 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:=
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1= =D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.com= > wrote:
Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wrong. Cuz it = may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a man and I think = the person is a man.
He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all t= hat is why I called him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}.
Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meaning has chang= ed dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997.
Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always has been/ = veridical- it must and can only be used for things which /actually are/ wha= t you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/ non-veridical.
xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed how q= uantification works.
 
=D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 18:18:40= UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:= 50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote:
> I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a man.
> You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la s= elpa'i.=20
> And they can say am I right or not.

Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe someone
who seems to be a man?

Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then.
Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway when you
have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to
a specific individual no matter the description.


v4hn

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--
= mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.lu= k. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<= br>

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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n.
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--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.<= br> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt= _out.
 
 



--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 



--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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