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Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo}
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From: "John E. Clifford" <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <5e8808f6-7bf5-4276-a814-3877f177e6b9@googlegroups.com>
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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 06:40:20 -0500
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 Content preview:  Because predicates in predication position are inherently
   veridical, else the whole system collapses. The stress on "actually" is to
    make the point in contrast to predicates in nominal position, where the reading
    depends upon the descriptor used. ( Note again:there better be a very good
    reason for using {le broda} for a non-broda.) [...] 
 
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Because predicates in predication position are inherently veridical, else t=
he whole system collapses.  The stress on "actually" is to make the point i=
n contrast to predicates in nominal position, where the reading depends upo=
n the descriptor used.  ( Note again:there better be a very good reason for=
 using {le broda} for a non-broda.)

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 24, 2013, at 6:33, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volisha=
vas@gmail.com> wrote:

> You've said: now it means "something(s) which actually are broda".
> My translation of {zo'e noi broda} is: "something, which are broda". Wher=
e did you get "actually"???
>=20
> On Monday, June 24, 2013 5:24:16 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 4:21 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7=
 <volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Quote: "which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0 by the BPFK, alt=
hough it is technically subject to future changes until we declare ourselve=
s done".
> And if you're right about xorlo then why does {lo}-entry contains old ver=
sion (veridical one)?
>=20
> Because xorlo doesn't change the fact that lo is the veridical article an=
d le is the non-veridical one.
> =20
> And if you think that "veridical" is the right and from xorlo-update, the=
n where "veridical" word in in-xorlo {lo} definition?
>=20
> Nowhere, because xorlo only describes the /changes/ it makes.
> =20
> And why then {lo}-entry says underneath "Under the xorlo reform, lo conve=
rts a selbri to a sumti in a rather generic way. In particular, lo broda =
=3D zo'e noi broda.". Simply to repeat???
>=20
> Because pre-xorlo {lo} had default quantifiers. {lo broda} /used/ to mean=
 "at least one of all existing things which actually are broda", now it mea=
ns "something(s) which actually are broda"
> =20
>=20
> On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:44:06 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7=
 <volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Only CLL is official, all the rest are just propositions. Quote from here=
: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo
> ""xorlo" is our (the baupla fuzykamni's) pet name for the gadri (articles=
, like "the" and "a" in English) BPFK proposal written mostly by xorxes."
> or from here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri
> Title says: "Proposed definitions".
>=20
> If you can read...
>=20
> From the /exact/ /same/ /page/:
> "The gadri proposal (which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0 by =
the BPFK"
>=20
> xorlo was unanimously made official by the BPFK way back in 2004.
>=20
>=20
> And stop being a dick.
> =20
>=20
>=20
> On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:32:58 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:28 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7=
 <volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dictionary entry about {lo} shows CLL version (which has official, but ol=
d meaning) of {lo}. And noted how under xorlo reform {lo} is understood now=
: lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda. That's new.
> Also new definition see here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+=
gadri
> Dictionaries prefer to stick rather to official version (in CLL), but off=
er a hand to whomever wants to know more of new changes made in Lojban.
> No one forces you to abandon the official way of understanding {gadri}-me=
aning.
> But if you want to know more of post-CLL changes to Lojban...
>=20
> The "xorlo version" /IS/ the official version.=20
>=20
>=20
> On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:05:42 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7=
 <volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here is new definition:
> lo (LE)
> Generic article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into=
 a sumti. The resulting expression refers generically to any or some indivi=
dual or individuals that fit as the first argument of the selbri. An inner =
quantifier can be used to indicate the number of individuals. An outer quan=
tifier can be used to quantify distributively over such individuals.
> (Source: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri)
>=20
>=20
> Where did you find the word "veridical"?
>=20
>=20
> http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/lo
> lo LE ...KU cmavo
>=20
> veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ...
>=20
> Under the xorlo reform, lo converts a selbri to a sumti in a rather gener=
ic way. In particular, lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda.
>=20
> CLL 6.2
> jbovlaste
> =20
>=20
> =D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:02:39 UTC=
+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7=
 <volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wrong. Cuz i=
t may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a man and I thin=
k the person is a man.
> He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all that is why I called hi=
m/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}.
> Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meaning has cha=
nged dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997.
>=20
> Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always has been/=
 veridical- it must and can only be used for things which /actually are/ wh=
at you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/ non-veridical.
>=20
> xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed how qua=
ntification works.
> =20
> =D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 18:18:40 UT=
C+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=
=DB=C5=D7 wrote:=20
> > I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a man.=20
> > You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la selpa'=
i.=20
> > And they can say am I right or not.=20
>=20
> Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe someone=20
> who seems to be a man?=20
>=20
> Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then.=20
> Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway when you=20
> have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to=20
> a specific individual no matter the description.=20
>=20
>=20
> v4hn=20
> --=20
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> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>=20
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>=20
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
> --=20
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> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>=20
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "lojban" group.
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> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>=20
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
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> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>=20
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
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> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an=
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> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
> =20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>=20
> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
> --=20
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> =20
> =20

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset=KOI8-R

<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Because predicates in pre=
dication position are inherently veridical, else the whole system collapses=
. &nbsp;The stress on "actually" is to make the point in contrast to predic=
ates in nominal position, where the reading depends upon the descriptor use=
d. &nbsp;( Note again:there better be a very good reason for using {le brod=
a} for a non-broda.)<br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Jun 24, 2013=
, at 6:33, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:v=
olishavas@gmail.com">volishavas@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div>=
</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>You've said: now it means "something(s=
) which actually are broda".<br>My translation of {zo'e noi broda} is: "som=
ething, which are broda". Where did you get "actually"???<br><br>On Monday,=
 June 24, 2013 5:24:16 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left: 1ex;"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at =
4:21 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"Xs4kHnbcomc=
J">volis...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">
Quote: "which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0 by the BPFK, altho=
ugh=20
it is technically subject to future changes until we declare ourselves=20
done".<br>And if you're right about xorlo then why does {lo}-entry contains=
 old version (veridical one)?<br></blockquote><div><br>Because xorlo doesn'=
t change the fact that lo is the veridical article and le is the non-veridi=
cal one.<br>
&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">And if you think that "veridical=
" is the right and from xorlo-update, then where "veridical" word in in-xor=
lo {lo} definition?<br>
</blockquote><div><br>Nowhere, because xorlo only describes the /changes/ i=
t makes.<br>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">And why then {lo}-en=
try says underneath "Under the xorlo reform, <a href=3D"http://vlasisku.loj=
ban.org/vlasisku/lo" target=3D"_blank">lo</a> converts a selbri to a sumti =
in a rather generic way. In particular, lo broda =3D <a href=3D"http://vlas=
isku.lojban.org/vlasisku/zo%27e" target=3D"_blank">zo'e</a> noi broda.". Si=
mply to repeat???<br>
</blockquote><div><br>Because pre-xorlo {lo} had default quantifiers. {lo b=
roda} /used/ to mean "at least one of all existing things which actually ar=
e broda", now it means "something(s) which actually are broda"<br>
&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:4=
4:06 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:<div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:41 AM, =E1=CE=
=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>volis...@gmail.=
com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

Only CLL is official, all the rest are just propositions. Quote from here: =
<a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttp://www.lojban.org/tiki/<u></u>How<wbr>+to+use+xorlo</a><br>""xorlo" is o=
ur (the <a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/baupla+fuzykamni" title=3D"ba=
upla fuzykamni" target=3D"_blank">baupla fuzykamni</a>'s) pet name for the =
gadri (articles, like "the" and "a" in English) BPFK proposal written mostl=
y by <a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/xorxes" title=3D"+ gy" target=3D=
"_blank">xorxes</a>."<br>

or from here: <a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/<u></u>BPF<wbr>K+Section%3A+ga=
dri</a><br>Title says: "Proposed definitions".<br><br>If you can read...<br=
>
</blockquote>
<div><br>From the /exact/ /same/ /page/:<br>"<a href=3D"http://www.lojban.o=
rg/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri" title=3D"BPFK Section: gadri" target=3D"_bla=
nk">The gadri proposal</a> (which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to =
0 by the BPFK"<br>

<br>xorlo was unanimously made official by the BPFK way back in 2004.<br><b=
r><br>And stop being a dick.<br>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<br>
<br>
On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:32:58 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:<div><div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:28 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>volis...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">
Dictionary entry about {lo} shows CLL version (which has official, but old =
meaning) of {lo}. And noted how under xorlo reform {lo} is understood now: =
lo broda =3D <a href=3D"http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/zo%27e" target=
=3D"_blank">zo'e</a> noi broda. That's new.<br>


Also new definition see here: <a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Se=
ction%3A+gadri" target=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/<u></u>BPF<u><=
/u><u></u><wbr>K+Section%3A+gadri</a><br>Dictionaries prefer to stick rathe=
r to official version (in CLL), but offer a hand to whomever wants to know =
more of new changes made in Lojban.<br>


No one forces you to abandon the official way of understanding {gadri}-mean=
ing.<br>But if you want to know more of post-CLL changes to Lojban...<br></=
blockquote><div><br>The "xorlo version" /IS/ the official version. <br>


</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br><br>On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:05:=
42 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:<div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
>


<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE=
=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>volis...@gmail.=
com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


Here is new definition:<br><dl><dt><b>lo</b> (LE)</dt><dd> Generic article.=
 It converts a
 selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting=20
expression refers generically to any or some individual or individuals=20
that fit as the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be
 used to indicate the number of individuals. An outer quantifier can be=20
used to quantify distributively over such individuals.</dd><dt>(Source: <a =
href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://www.lojban.org/tiki/<u></u>BPF<u></u><u></u><wbr>K+Section%3A+gadri=
</a>)</dt>
</dl>
<p>
<br></p>
<p>Where did you find the word "veridical"?</p></blockquote><div><br><a hre=
f=3D"http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/lo" target=3D"_blank">http://vlasi=
sku.lojban.org/<u></u>vla<u></u><u></u><wbr>sisku/lo</a><br><h1>
        lo
        <sub>
          <a href=3D"http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/LE" target=3D"_bla=
nk">LE</a>
            &hellip;<a href=3D"http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/KU" targ=
et=3D"_blank">KU</a>
        </sub>
        <span>cmavo</span>
      </h1>
      <p>veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ...</p>
      <p>Under the xorlo reform, <a href=3D"http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlas=
isku/lo" target=3D"_blank">lo</a> converts a selbri to a sumti in a rather =
generic way. In particular, lo broda =3D <a href=3D"http://vlasisku.lojban.=
org/vlasisku/zo%27e" target=3D"_blank">zo'e</a> noi broda.</p>


      <ul><li>
          <a href=3D"http://dag.github.com/cll/6/2/" target=3D"_blank">CLL =
6.2</a>
        </li><li><a href=3D"http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/lo" target=3D"=
_blank">jbovlaste</a></li></ul>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><=
br>=D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013&nbsp;=C7., 3:02:=
39 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=
=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>volis...@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wrong. Cuz it =
may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a man and I think =
the person is a man.<br>He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all t=
hat is why I called him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}.<br>


Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meaning has chang=
ed dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997.<br></blockquote><div><br=
>Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always has been/ =
veridical- it must and can only be used for things which /actually are/ wha=
t you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/ non-veridical.<b=
r>


<br>xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed how q=
uantification works.<br>&nbsp;</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv>
=D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013&nbsp;=C7., 18:18:40=
 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:<div=
>
<div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:=
50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote:
<br>&gt; I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a man.
<br>&gt; You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la s=
elpa'i.=20
<br>&gt; And they can say am I right or not.
<br>
<br>Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe someone
<br>who seems to be a man?
<br>
<br>Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then.
<br>Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway when you
<br>have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to
<br>a specific individual no matter the description.
<br>
<br>
<br>v4hn
<br></blockquote>

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