Received: from mail-pa0-f59.google.com ([209.85.220.59]:56975) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ur5eA-00035m-4F for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 05:13:35 -0700 Received: by mail-pa0-f59.google.com with SMTP id fa11sf3642023pad.14 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 05:13:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=VFEzkmFXcDzry6a5COtLIunthJNIFLXr+QkIG041gDo=; b=WI0BuRtXxzVxo3dlv8++EC8iEGTgI/1GPG1cA8eoRlDzzgO13YLb6W+SUwQXTUw7KC AA92jNnBzV2H+kU03FTPiUUegMGL+U+TL16LNC7GHNBEZYdHWxygdtBUDOFVN+aXJD4z GcZFWrXYd4HOebb1XEbpSUnzCnHQfznZCEO/8Q1B4RDjMAVeN8b4HeYPb08gOWsBb5cw z+idarrsxXr5xdsA/LIbdKavoYcJ6acyqaI7UMUx3FS5rAkEmQ8/qYZ+c2g1/GmgtFxk ytKAsguIkhpzl7RP3Ja4VAwgJ3TJP7pN8bAtMzLx9tEtcYlXhBZjG5W6GBe8aJJuMeuI EU+A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=VFEzkmFXcDzry6a5COtLIunthJNIFLXr+QkIG041gDo=; b=Qf9Di0KL7VRa11klDjCa18F0sbRsjek6laRXGUxDp827HhTxLTGm2LLPkg5wnuIrT+ C9v6bSuwGVJW/yoXXbQK0E8wnd6i3D11NFiWQLAP6R4f1ZVoLr15zJce3EoSv/eBXR+7 /rRb2FCrZxhbG/aIU/7/UMlujD0C6wEtnea7ouB5y/hLsW/7sPg2Mv4oWnDdS/gJbkWq IXcb5jnUZE+7oGBMNaB/hS9fJ54Ltfv4FEOmbC4dE1wIT2SqyuHSZ7XOZg3fHlm14Qda S/t3/RbyyfpKYeKEI6d9A/3J7OvQ+DQdYAviSk6YI8VKF1D0f8NDOWuGCQVUbMCMH79V HYIA== X-Received: by 10.50.88.102 with SMTP id bf6mr435510igb.0.1372075998683; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 05:13:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.22.10 with SMTP id z10ls2169555ige.19.canary; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 05:13:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.83.100 with SMTP id p4mr363452igy.15.1372075997825; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 05:13:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 05:13:16 -0700 (PDT) From: =?UTF-8?B?0JDQvdCw0YLQvtC70LjQuSDQk9Cw0YjQtdCy?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <87F128CE-BD14-4477-A596-6C726D2EC456@yahoo.com> References: <5d7f238f-ff93-40ab-af24-fc6320d91b23@googlegroups.com> <199f9de9-f0bb-4cbb-bd8e-e124b45d5d1d@googlegroups.com> <20130623121840.GI32044@samsa.fritz.box> <2d346b25-b744-4f11-9fcb-65211de46c48@googlegroups.com> <14446569-dc85-4745-bf09-3c21f0e50c36@googlegroups.com> <629d0888-06e6-4668-839a-7b045c618eba@googlegroups.com> <0e7c3d42-ca19-4edc-b121-8d9084ecd7fc@googlegroups.com> <5e8808f6-7bf5-4276-a814-3877f177e6b9@googlegroups.com> <87F128CE-BD14-4477-A596-6C726D2EC456@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo} MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: volishavas@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2856_583213.1372075996626" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_2856_583213.1372075996626 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {ca'a} is used for "actually is" (read CLL 10.19) In my opinion, you don't want to see the truth and so I quit from the=20 discussion. =20 On Monday, June 24, 2013 5:40:20 PM UTC+6, clifford wrote: > > Because predicates in predication position are inherently veridical, else= =20 > the whole system collapses. The stress on "actually" is to make the poin= t=20 > in contrast to predicates in nominal position, where the reading depends= =20 > upon the descriptor used. ( Note again:there better be a very good reaso= n=20 > for using {le broda} for a non-broda.) > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jun 24, 2013, at 6:33, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 >=20 > wrote: > > You've said: now it means "something(s) which actually are broda". > My translation of {zo'e noi broda} is: "something, which are broda". Wher= e=20 > did you get "actually"??? > > On Monday, June 24, 2013 5:24:16 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 4:21 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5= =D7 wrote: >> >>> Quote: "which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0 by the BPFK,= =20 >>> although it is technically subject to future changes until we declare= =20 >>> ourselves done". >>> And if you're right about xorlo then why does {lo}-entry contains old= =20 >>> version (veridical one)? >>> >> >> Because xorlo doesn't change the fact that lo is the veridical article= =20 >> and le is the non-veridical one. >> =20 >> >>> And if you think that "veridical" is the right and from xorlo-update,= =20 >>> then where "veridical" word in in-xorlo {lo} definition? >>> >> >> Nowhere, because xorlo only describes the /changes/ it makes. >> =20 >> >>> And why then {lo}-entry says underneath "Under the xorlo reform, loconverts a selbri to a sumti in a rathe= r generic way. In particular, lo=20 >>> broda =3D zo'e noi broda."= .=20 >>> Simply to repeat??? >>> >> >> Because pre-xorlo {lo} had default quantifiers. {lo broda} /used/ to mea= n=20 >> "at least one of all existing things which actually are broda", now it= =20 >> means "something(s) which actually are broda" >> =20 >> >>> >>> On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:44:06 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5= =D7 wrote: >>>> >>>>> Only CLL is official, all the rest are just propositions. Quote from= =20 >>>>> here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**How+to+use+xorlo >>>>> ""xorlo" is our (the baupla fuzykamni's)=20 >>>>> pet name for the gadri (articles, like "the" and "a" in English) BPFK= =20 >>>>> proposal written mostly by xorxes >>>>> ." >>>>> or from here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**BPFK+Section%3A+gadri >>>>> Title says: "Proposed definitions". >>>>> >>>>> If you can read... >>>>> >>>> >>>> From the /exact/ /same/ /page/: >>>> "The gadri proposal = (which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0 by the BPFK" >>>> >>>> xorlo was unanimously made official by the BPFK way back in 2004. >>>> >>>> >>>> And stop being a dick. >>>> =20 >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:32:58 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:28 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB= =C5=D7 wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dictionary entry about {lo} shows CLL version (which has official,= =20 >>>>>>> but old meaning) of {lo}. And noted how under xorlo reform {lo} is= =20 >>>>>>> understood now: lo broda =3D zo'enoi broda. That's new. >>>>>>> Also new definition see here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**BPF**** >>>>>>> K+Section%3A+gadri >>>>>>> Dictionaries prefer to stick rather to official version (in CLL),= =20 >>>>>>> but offer a hand to whomever wants to know more of new changes made= in=20 >>>>>>> Lojban. >>>>>>> No one forces you to abandon the official way of understanding=20 >>>>>>> {gadri}-meaning. >>>>>>> But if you want to know more of post-CLL changes to Lojban... >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The "xorlo version" /IS/ the official version.=20 >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:05:42 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1= =DB=C5=D7 >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Here is new definition: >>>>>>>>> *lo* (LE) Generic article. It converts a selbri, selecting its=20 >>>>>>>>> first argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers gen= erically=20 >>>>>>>>> to any or some individual or individuals that fit as the first ar= gument of=20 >>>>>>>>> the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the numbe= r of=20 >>>>>>>>> individuals. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distribu= tively=20 >>>>>>>>> over such individuals.(Source: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**BPF**= * >>>>>>>>> *K+Section%3A+gadri >>>>>>>>> )=20 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Where did you find the word "veridical"? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://vlasisku.lojban.org/**vla****sisku/lo >>>>>>>> lo LE ...KU=20 >>>>>>>> cmavo=20 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Under the xorlo reform, lo converts a selbri to a sumti in a rather generic way. In particular, lo=20 >>>>>>>> broda =3D zo'e noi=20 >>>>>>>> broda. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - CLL 6.2 =20 >>>>>>>> - jbovlaste >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> =D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:0= 2:39 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys=20 >>>>>>>>> =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1= =DB=C5=D7 < >>>>>>>>>> volis...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be=20 >>>>>>>>>>> wrong. Cuz it may be that I just now saw a woman, which I descr= ibed as a=20 >>>>>>>>>>> man and I think the person is a man. >>>>>>>>>>> He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all that is why I= =20 >>>>>>>>>>> called him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}. >>>>>>>>>>> Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the=20 >>>>>>>>>>> {lo}-meaning has changed dramatically since CLL, which is dated= by 1997. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always= =20 >>>>>>>>>> has been/ veridical- it must and can only be used for things whi= ch=20 >>>>>>>>>> /actually are/ what you're describing them as. {le} is and /alwa= ys has=20 >>>>>>>>>> been/ non-veridical. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just change= d=20 >>>>>>>>>> how quantification works. >>>>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> =D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 1= 8:18:40 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn=20 >>>>>>>>>>> =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC= =C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote:=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> > I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is = a=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> man.=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> > You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani o= r=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> la selpa'i.=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> > And they can say am I right or not.=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe= =20 >>>>>>>>>>>> someone=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> who seems to be a man?=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then.=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway= =20 >>>>>>>>>>>> when you=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer t= o=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> a specific individual no matter the description.=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> v4hn=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> --=20 >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the=20 >>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from= =20 >>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group****** >>>>>>>>>>> /lojban . >>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou****** >>>>>>>>>>> ps/opt_out . >>>>>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --=20 >>>>>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do= =20 >>>>>>>>>> zo'o >>>>>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --=20 >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e=20 >>>>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,= =20 >>>>>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group****/lojban >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**** >>>>>>>>> ps/opt_out . >>>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --=20 >>>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo= 'o >>>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> --=20 >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= =20 >>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,= =20 >>>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_ou= t >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --=20 >>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>> >>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>> >>>>> --=20 >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d=20 >>>>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>>>> . >>>>> =20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --=20 >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>> >>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> >>> --=20 >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= =20 >>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> >> >> >> >> --=20 >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= =20 > email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > =20 > =20 > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ------=_Part_2856_583213.1372075996626 Content-Type: text/html; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {ca'a} is used for "actually is" (read CLL 10.19)
In my opinion, you don= 't want to see the truth and so I quit from the discussion.
 
On= Monday, June 24, 2013 5:40:20 PM UTC+6, clifford wrote:
Because predicate= s in predication position are inherently veridical, else the whole system c= ollapses.  The stress on "actually" is to make the point in contrast t= o predicates in nominal position, where the reading depends upon the descri= ptor used.  ( Note again:there better be a very good reason for using = {le broda} for a non-broda.)

Sent from my iPad

On Jun = 24, 2013, at 6:33, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis= ...@gmail.com> wrote:

You've said: now it means "something(s) which actually are broda".=
My translation of {zo'e noi broda} is: "something, which are broda". Wh= ere did you get "actually"???

On Monday, June 24, 2013 5:24:16 PM UT= C+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 4:21 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA= =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.com>= wrote:
Quote: "which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0 by the BPFK, altho= ugh=20 it is technically subject to future changes until we declare ourselves=20 done".
And if you're right about xorlo then why does {lo}-entry contains= old version (veridical one)?

Because xorlo doesn'= t change the fact that lo is the veridical article and le is the non-veridi= cal one.
 
And if you think that "veridical= " is the right and from xorlo-update, then where "veridical" word in in-xor= lo {lo} definition?

Nowhere, because xorlo only describes the /changes/ i= t makes.
 
And why then {lo}-en= try says underneath "Under the xorlo reform, lo converts a selbri to a sumti = in a rather generic way. In particular, lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda.". Si= mply to repeat???

Because pre-xorlo {lo} had default quantifiers. {lo b= roda} /used/ to mean "at least one of all existing things which actually ar= e broda", now it means "something(s) which actually are broda"
 

On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:4= 4:06 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:41 AM, =E1=CE= =C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.= com> wrote:
Only CLL is official, all the rest are just propositions. Quote from here: = h= ttp://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo
""xorlo" is o= ur (the baupla fuzykamni's) pet name for the = gadri (articles, like "the" and "a" in English) BPFK proposal written mostl= y by xorxes."
or from here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+ga= dri
Title says: "Proposed definitions".

If you can read...

From the /exact/ /same/ /page/:
"The gadri proposal (which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to = 0 by the BPFK"

xorlo was unanimously made official by the BPFK way back in 2004.

And stop being a dick.
 
=

On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:32:58 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:28 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <= span dir=3D"ltr"><volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dictionary entry about {lo} shows CLL version (which has official, but old = meaning) of {lo}. And noted how under xorlo reform {lo} is understood now: = lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda. That's new.
Also new definition see here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPF<= /u>K+Section%3A+gadri
Dictionaries prefer to stick rathe= r to official version (in CLL), but offer a hand to whomever wants to know = more of new changes made in Lojban.
No one forces you to abandon the official way of understanding {gadri}-mean= ing.
But if you want to know more of post-CLL changes to Lojban...

The "xorlo version" /IS/ the official version.


On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:05:= 42 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE= =C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.= com> wrote:
Here is new definition:
lo (LE)
Generic article.= It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting=20 expression refers generically to any or some individual or individuals=20 that fit as the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number of individuals. An outer quantifier can be=20 used to quantify distributively over such individuals.
(Source: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri= )


Where did you find the word "veridical"?


http://vlasi= sku.lojban.org/vlasisku/lo

lo LE …KU cmavo

veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ...

Under the xorlo reform, lo converts a selbri to a sumti in a rather = generic way. In particular, lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda.

 
<= br>=D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:02:= 39 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:=
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1= =D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.com= > wrote:
Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wrong. Cuz it = may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a man and I think = the person is a man.
He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all t= hat is why I called him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}.
Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meaning has chang= ed dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997.
Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always has been/ = veridical- it must and can only be used for things which /actually are/ wha= t you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/ non-veridical.
xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed how q= uantification works.
 
=D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 18:18:40= UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:= 50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote:
> I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a man.
> You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la s= elpa'i.=20
> And they can say am I right or not.

Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe someone
who seems to be a man?

Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then.
Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway when you
have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to
a specific individual no matter the description.


v4hn

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= mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.lu= k. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<= br>

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mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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