Received: from mail-wg0-f57.google.com ([74.125.82.57]:50720) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Ur5mL-0003D1-5A for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 05:22:03 -0700 Received: by mail-wg0-f57.google.com with SMTP id b12sf1894330wgh.12 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 05:21:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=QnjSZS5evBOWROPABotrYiAwLp95e+xUQpESmh/QSuo=; b=hnL3mQrw5fH+nwZdpUlVh5TLoA7j3PbboCKw1TNujjLhjQZOneSkvWfjA32hFrV4B9 LGh5CKE9HS34o7TINKJ7LcKspyHwQcBju68T2Xxp20VeEwQ59Dyk05X4GX6gn/KB2Kqn xSWGRl4VQ1TTaLOGhITE680IuSa4sY4qtwAmzoLLTFELFArsake2VKZv/vLti3nYkZrU SJ6whwH4raNulTGq6Z0Wc8LlJBMeyspxO92NMEFhpwB692tkkLdoNMwuKa/E5D7Dfj63 Q8H1r+CREtpkrtKTloX5FEZ/tlaiDDKPxxvM/dpByA/cfcT/VGuaecH5uytmuz3fv2L4 vkLg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=QnjSZS5evBOWROPABotrYiAwLp95e+xUQpESmh/QSuo=; b=RY7gtDZ+w5hL0BGqD2AvIRcEUyOHCLX5KsbxAWuSQm4C1OH/NcdsyuZe//mVWiDcp0 UuY4v1Sb925Nw0a87KwoAMkmxqyVNHegZb9Fr0YaCd+VnpTpzW2itHVa9bxXk+S0zAWI NwXiv0PgdX/fMBmXyBJMdtG5RKO42wn+RnFpdZA/o+FWgu7ragdS/Qrhbnx2jboaapzx iVGwn/rQskPBoNzHFZViLBOAZmSkJ0bxUAA1y0Dnu3dib5lYdiqp5EzS9nTtb65/P+sN HmJY4JQSnMymwm6pD1AMLNxrh95WWKNfxq9XK2vKSzAe0F/mHSjdN4G8II5YyVuwOmFk S3VQ== X-Received: by 10.180.206.1 with SMTP id lk1mr272500wic.16.1372076505978; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 05:21:45 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.98.233 with SMTP id el9ls802231wib.40.canary; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 05:21:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.204.228.80 with SMTP id jd16mr201659bkb.6.1372076504646; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 05:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x22c.google.com (mail-la0-x22c.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c03::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id nl4si338344bkb.2.2013.06.24.05.21.44 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 24 Jun 2013 05:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c03::22c; Received: by mail-la0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id er20so10251196lab.3 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 05:21:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.131.103 with SMTP id ol7mr12420146lbb.70.1372076504328; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 05:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.29.10 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 05:21:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5d7f238f-ff93-40ab-af24-fc6320d91b23@googlegroups.com> <199f9de9-f0bb-4cbb-bd8e-e124b45d5d1d@googlegroups.com> <20130623121840.GI32044@samsa.fritz.box> <2d346b25-b744-4f11-9fcb-65211de46c48@googlegroups.com> <14446569-dc85-4745-bf09-3c21f0e50c36@googlegroups.com> <629d0888-06e6-4668-839a-7b045c618eba@googlegroups.com> <0e7c3d42-ca19-4edc-b121-8d9084ecd7fc@googlegroups.com> <5e8808f6-7bf5-4276-a814-3877f177e6b9@googlegroups.com> <87F128CE-BD14-4477-A596-6C726D2EC456@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 06:21:44 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo} From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b3a86dea530e704dfe57434 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b3a86dea530e704dfe57434 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 6:13 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <= volishavas@gmail.com>wrote: > {ca'a} is used for "actually is" (read CLL 10.19) > In my opinion, you don't want to see the truth and so I quit from the > discussion. No, ca'a an event contour stating that the time of the event happening includes actuality. YOU are the one who refuses to see the truth, and insulting John Clifford, who has been involved with Lojban, as far as I know, since before it /existed/, in the process. > On Monday, June 24, 2013 5:40:20 PM UTC+6, clifford wrote: > >> Because predicates in predication position are inherently veridical, els= e >> the whole system collapses. The stress on "actually" is to make the poi= nt >> in contrast to predicates in nominal position, where the reading depends >> upon the descriptor used. ( Note again:there better be a very good reas= on >> for using {le broda} for a non-broda.) >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jun 24, 2013, at 6:33, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote: >> >> You've said: now it means "something(s) which actually are broda". >> My translation of {zo'e noi broda} is: "something, which are broda". >> Where did you get "actually"??? >> >> On Monday, June 24, 2013 5:24:16 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 4:21 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5= =D7 wrote: >>> >>>> Quote: "which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0 by the BPFK, >>>> although it is technically subject to future changes until we declare >>>> ourselves done". >>>> And if you're right about xorlo then why does {lo}-entry contains old >>>> version (veridical one)? >>>> >>> >>> Because xorlo doesn't change the fact that lo is the veridical article >>> and le is the non-veridical one. >>> >>> >>>> And if you think that "veridical" is the right and from xorlo-update, >>>> then where "veridical" word in in-xorlo {lo} definition? >>>> >>> >>> Nowhere, because xorlo only describes the /changes/ it makes. >>> >>> >>>> And why then {lo}-entry says underneath "Under the xorlo reform, loconverts a selbri to a sumti in a rath= er generic way. In particular, lo >>>> broda =3D zo'e noi broda.= ". >>>> Simply to repeat??? >>>> >>> >>> Because pre-xorlo {lo} had default quantifiers. {lo broda} /used/ to >>> mean "at least one of all existing things which actually are broda", no= w it >>> means "something(s) which actually are broda" >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:44:06 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB= =C5=D7 wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Only CLL is official, all the rest are just propositions. Quote from >>>>>> here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**How**+to+use+xorlo >>>>>> ""xorlo" is our (the baupla fuzykamni's) >>>>>> pet name for the gadri (articles, like "the" and "a" in English) BPF= K >>>>>> proposal written mostly by xorxes >>>>>> ." >>>>>> or from here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**BPF**K+Section%3A+gadri >>>>>> Title says: "Proposed definitions". >>>>>> >>>>>> If you can read... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From the /exact/ /same/ /page/: >>>>> "The gadri proposal (which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0 by the BPFK" >>>>> >>>>> xorlo was unanimously made official by the BPFK way back in 2004. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And stop being a dick. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:32:58 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:28 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB= =C5=D7 wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dictionary entry about {lo} shows CLL version (which has official, >>>>>>>> but old meaning) of {lo}. And noted how under xorlo reform {lo} is >>>>>>>> understood now: lo broda =3D zo'enoi broda. That's new. >>>>>>>> Also new definition see here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**BPF****= * >>>>>>>> *K+Section%3A+gadri >>>>>>>> Dictionaries prefer to stick rather to official version (in CLL), >>>>>>>> but offer a hand to whomever wants to know more of new changes mad= e in >>>>>>>> Lojban. >>>>>>>> No one forces you to abandon the official way of understanding >>>>>>>> {gadri}-meaning. >>>>>>>> But if you want to know more of post-CLL changes to Lojban... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The "xorlo version" /IS/ the official version. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:05:42 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1= =DB=C5=D7 < >>>>>>>>> volis...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Here is new definition: >>>>>>>>>> *lo* (LE) Generic article. It converts a selbri, selecting its >>>>>>>>>> first argument, into a sumti. The resulting expression refers ge= nerically >>>>>>>>>> to any or some individual or individuals that fit as the first a= rgument of >>>>>>>>>> the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the numb= er of >>>>>>>>>> individuals. An outer quantifier can be used to quantify distrib= utively >>>>>>>>>> over such individuals.(Source: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/**BPF*= * >>>>>>>>>> ****K+Section%3A+gadri >>>>>>>>>> ) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Where did you find the word "veridical"? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://vlasisku.lojban.org/**vla******sisku/lo >>>>>>>>> lo LE ...KU >>>>>>>>> cmavo >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Under the xorlo reform, loconverts a selbri to a sumti in a rather generic way. In particular, lo >>>>>>>>> broda =3D zo'e noi >>>>>>>>> broda. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> - CLL 6.2 >>>>>>>>> - jbovlaste >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> =D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:= 02:39 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys >>>>>>>>>> =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7= =C1=DB=C5=D7 < >>>>>>>>>>> volis...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be >>>>>>>>>>>> wrong. Cuz it may be that I just now saw a woman, which I desc= ribed as a >>>>>>>>>>>> man and I think the person is a man. >>>>>>>>>>>> He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all that is why = I >>>>>>>>>>>> called him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}. >>>>>>>>>>>> Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the >>>>>>>>>>>> {lo}-meaning has changed dramatically since CLL, which is date= d by 1997. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always >>>>>>>>>>> has been/ veridical- it must and can only be used for things wh= ich >>>>>>>>>>> /actually are/ what you're describing them as. {le} is and /alw= ays has >>>>>>>>>>> been/ non-veridical. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just >>>>>>>>>>> changed how quantification works. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> =D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., = 18:18:40 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn >>>>>>>>>>>> =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC= =C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> > I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is >>>>>>>>>>>>> a man. >>>>>>>>>>>>> > You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani >>>>>>>>>>>>> or la selpa'i. >>>>>>>>>>>>> > And they can say am I right or not. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe >>>>>>>>>>>>> someone >>>>>>>>>>>>> who seems to be a man? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway >>>>>>>>>>>>> when you >>>>>>>>>>>>> have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> a specific individual no matter the description. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> v4hn >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group******** >>>>>>>>>>>> /lojban . >>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou******= * >>>>>>>>>>>> *ps/opt_out . >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do >>>>>>>>>>> zo'o >>>>>>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it= , >>>>>>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group******/lojba= n >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou****** >>>>>>>>>> ps/opt_out . >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do >>>>>>>>> zo'o >>>>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group****/lojban >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**** >>>>>>>> ps/opt_out . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'= o >>>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban >>>>>> . >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out= >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>> >>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >> . >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >> . >> >> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7b3a86dea530e704dfe57434 Content-Type: text/html; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 6:13 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF= =CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volishavas@gmail.com> wrote:
{ca'a} is used for "actually is" (read CLL 10.19)
In my op= inion, you don't want to see the truth and so I quit from the discussio= n.

No, ca'a an event contour stating that the time= of the event happening includes actuality.

YOU are the one who refuses to see the truth, and insulting John Cliffo= rd, who has been involved with Lojban, as far as I know, since before it /e= xisted/, in the process.
 
On Monday, June 24, 2013 5:40:20 PM UTC+6, clifford wrote= :
Because predicates in predication position are inherently veridical, e= lse the whole system collapses.  The stress on "actually" is= to make the point in contrast to predicates in nominal position, where the= reading depends upon the descriptor used.  ( Note again:there better = be a very good reason for using {le broda} for a non-broda.)

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 24,= 2013, at 6:33, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gm= ail.com> wrote:

You've said: now it means "something(s) which actually are brod= a".
My translation of {zo'e noi broda} is: "something, which are broda= ". Where did you get "actually"???

On Monday, June 24= , 2013 5:24:16 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 4:21 AM, =E1=CE= =C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.= com> wrote:
Quote: "which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0 by the BPFK, = although=20 it is technically subject to future changes until we declare ourselves=20 done".
And if you're right about xorlo then why does {lo}-entry= contains old version (veridical one)?

Because xor= lo doesn't change the fact that lo is the veridical article and le is t= he non-veridical one.
 
And if you think that "veri= dical" is the right and from xorlo-update, then where "veridical&= quot; word in in-xorlo {lo} definition?

Nowhere, because xorlo only describes the /changes/ i= t makes.
 
And why then {lo}-en= try says underneath "Under the xorlo reform, lo converts a selbri to a s= umti in a rather generic way. In particular, lo broda =3D zo'e noi br= oda.". Simply to repeat???

Because pre-xorlo {lo} had default quantifiers. {lo b= roda} /used/ to mean "at least one of all existing things which actual= ly are broda", now it means "something(s) which actually are brod= a"
 

On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:4= 4:06 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:41 AM, =E1=CE= =C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.= com> wrote:
Only CLL is official, all the rest are just propositions. Quote from here: = h= ttp://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo
""= ;xorlo" is our (the baupla fuzykamni'= ;s) pet name for the gadri (articles, like "the" and "a"= ; in English) BPFK proposal written mostly by xorxes."
or from here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+= gadri
Title says: "Proposed definitions".

If you ca= n read...

From the /exact/ /same/ /page/:
"The gadri proposal (which has now been accepted by a vote of 1= 1 to 0 by the BPFK"

xorlo was unanimously made official by the BPFK way back in 2004.

And stop being a dick.
 
=

On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:32:58 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:28 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <= span dir=3D"ltr"><volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dictionary entry about {lo} shows CLL version (which has official, but old = meaning) of {lo}. And noted how under xorlo reform {lo} is understood now: = lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda. That's new.
Also new definition see here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPF<= /u>K+Section%3A+gadri
Dictionaries prefer to stick rat= her to official version (in CLL), but offer a hand to whomever wants to kno= w more of new changes made in Lojban.
No one forces you to abandon the official way of understanding {gadri}-mean= ing.
But if you want to know more of post-CLL changes to Lojban...

The "xorlo version" /IS/ the official version= .


On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:05:= 42 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE= =C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.= com> wrote:
Here is new definition:
lo (LE)
Generic article.= It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting=20 expression refers generically to any or some individual or individuals=20 that fit as the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number of individuals. An outer quantifier can be=20 used to quantify distributively over such individuals.
(Source: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gad= ri)


Where did you find the word "veridical"?

=
ht= tp://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/lo
lo LE …KU cmavo

veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ...

Under the xorlo reform, lo converts a selbri to a sumti in a rather = generic way. In particular, lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda.

 
<= br>=D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:02:= 39 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:=
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1= =D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.com= > wrote:
Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wrong. Cuz it = may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a man and I think = the person is a man.
He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all t= hat is why I called him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}.
Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meaning has chang= ed dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997.
Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always = has been/ veridical- it must and can only be used for things which /actuall= y are/ what you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/ no= n-veridical.

xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed how q= uantification works.
 
=D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 18:18:40= UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:= 50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote:
> I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a man.
> You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la s= elpa'i.=20
> And they can say am I right or not.

Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe someone
who seems to be a man?

Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then.
Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway when you
have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to
a specific individual no matter the description.


v4hn

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= mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa = bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am yo= ur father. :D )

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mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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