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[66.94.236.255]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f1si25177igq.2.2013.06.24.06.02.35 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 24 Jun 2013 06:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.255 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.255; Received: from [66.94.237.193] by nm29.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jun 2013 13:02:34 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.112] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jun 2013 13:02:34 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1017.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Jun 2013 13:02:34 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 651208.96972.bm@omp1017.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 44958 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Jun 2013 13:02:34 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: Di7GLoAVM1lDWHBB.DuU5h0sClBHFBd8jflCIIrL0NAHTR4 QWrrErnZ0LeD6AMOZsfK5frKaeFpp4JAMW3szlivDmXUih2.9Loqk5AVlvIX 8WqyUaMa0RoXqX7HWYXm6uFlMkGOcB0ps02MhjpGY3Dl8yKvrqUjqscD8H7O ElAXCtLzpOVv66kd.sWncSdUsTt6FWoZjvN6cd14GEoSkg830MI2L4.Vdx7O Hu74EzVmDnRVCg2Ic.jQysyjTyD7rfz3G_DHvLh19Ii8VuZ4zDKRstRTBqv_ fOwL4SKfupcXndOPgAooV3ncMRp6Kbhz4C8A_B8fTuJbxK4l930xb7rljXAb RJpaZyjzmgX2ph8Dy7U5mKv9iolFKQhkr0bRB8AsruKJ3vYWfMrge_nskjOf p3TiY34us.LcsTBoGjCLIyCuDeHePWVcNDZ1EQg.DWg1FSaEZ.pK5GLMMXo1 8JWe9J0P8JM0VXO1PTsoO7SlCr9X6pbIf6s5jZricUojuHJz8cyS97iUy6b. fZ8wHsWsJEGTF6Ta07Nej3F.GywJ1TWcAE6iJddr1tajzKQtVW7nwrqA3VET n7nEGu9GCbU5DYr.8K7lP3fMuumzZeAlNtdHsfkfJDrOJpP6ueO3UkubsPzx xRA8mMCs.ayhmwis1Piqf0ppNFoaUoHN4n_t1l7LOu6Q5hX_0AvDLF9.AEvv Ct1f5mP.8THq4NeCxNmKlA6FSfN9AsOezu9kJnGLwhBp_.aHL4gR4q_AEhus wF0.SW1oscm64DjvWOBXiWIgQIEsORJUEX6UATQQnyetXrgJVO_CIKYSMyoY U7d1dZOvNj6m7AZQk6nqTrBuq Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 06:02:33 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,V2VsbCwgaXQncyBub3QgYW4gZXZlbnQgY29udG91ciBidXQgYSBtb2RhbCwgaW4gdGhlIG5vcm1hbCwgbm9uLUxvamJhbmljLCBzZW5zZS7CoCBUaGF0IGlzLCBpdCBjb250cmFzdHMgd2l0aCB3aGF0IGlzIGluaGVyZW50bHkgcG9zc2libGUgYW5kIHdoYXQgaXMgcG9zc2libGUgYnV0IG5vdCBhY3R1YWxpemVkLsKgIFRoZSBwb2ludCBpcyB0aGF0IHRoZSAiYWN0dWFsIiBhdCBpc3N1ZSBjb250cmFzdHMgd2l0aCAiSSBjaG9vc2UgdG8gZGVzY3JpYmUgYXMiLCBhIHZlcnkgZGlmZmVyZW50IG5vdGlvbi4KCgoBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.148.554 References: <5d7f238f-ff93-40ab-af24-fc6320d91b23@googlegroups.com> <199f9de9-f0bb-4cbb-bd8e-e124b45d5d1d@googlegroups.com> <20130623121840.GI32044@samsa.fritz.box> <2d346b25-b744-4f11-9fcb-65211de46c48@googlegroups.com> <14446569-dc85-4745-bf09-3c21f0e50c36@googlegroups.com> <629d0888-06e6-4668-839a-7b045c618eba@googlegroups.com> <0e7c3d42-ca19-4edc-b121-8d9084ecd7fc@googlegroups.com> <5e8808f6-7bf5-4276-a814-3877f177e6b9@googlegroups.com> <87F128CE-BD14-4477-A596-6C726D2EC456@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1372078953.30845.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 06:02:33 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo} To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.255 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1789658926-2119511777-1372078953=:30845" X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 1 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Well, it's not an event contour but a modal, in the normal, non-Lojbanic, sense. That is, it contrasts with what is inherently possible and what is possible but not actualized. The point is that the "actual" at issue contrasts with "I choose to describe as", a very different notion. [...] Content analysis details: (0.1 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: lojban.org] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (kali9putra[at]yahoo.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid --1789658926-2119511777-1372078953=:30845 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, it's not an event contour but a modal, in the normal, non-Lojbanic, s= ense. That is, it contrasts with what is inherently possible and what is p= ossible but not actualized. The point is that the "actual" at issue contra= sts with "I choose to describe as", a very different notion. ________________________________ From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo} =20 On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 6:13 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <= volishavas@gmail.com> wrote: {ca'a} is used for "actually is" (read CLL 10.19) >In my opinion, you don't want to see the truth and so I quit from the disc= ussion. No, ca'a an event contour stating that the time of the event happening incl= udes actuality. YOU are the one who refuses to see the truth, and insulting John Clifford, = who has been involved with Lojban, as far as I know, since before it /exist= ed/, in the process. =20 On Monday, June 24, 2013 5:40:20 PM UTC+6, clifford wrote: >Because predicates in predication position are inherently veridical, else = the whole system collapses. The stress on "actually" is to make the point = in contrast to predicates in nominal position, where the reading depends up= on the descriptor used. ( Note again:there better be a very good reason fo= r using {le broda} for a non-broda.) >> >>Sent from my iPad >> >>On Jun 24, 2013, at 6:33, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote: >> >> >>You've said: now it means "something(s) which actually are broda". >>>My translation of {zo'e noi broda} is: "something, which are broda". Whe= re did you get "actually"??? >>> >>>On Monday, June 24, 2013 5:24:16 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 4:21 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5= =D7 wrote: >>>> >>>>Quote: "which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0 by the BPFK, a= lthough=20 it is technically subject to future changes until we declare ourselves=20 done". >>>>>And if you're right about xorlo then why does {lo}-entry contains old = version (veridical one)? >>>>> >>>> >>>>Because xorlo doesn't change the fact that lo is the veridical article = and le is the non-veridical one. >>>>=20 >>>>And if you think that "veridical" is the right and from xorlo-update, t= hen where "veridical" word in in-xorlo {lo} definition? >>>>> >>>> >>>>Nowhere, because xorlo only describes the /changes/ it makes. >>>>=20 >>>>And why then {lo}-entry says underneath "Under the xorlo reform, lo con= verts a selbri to a sumti in a rather generic way. In particular, lo broda = =3D zo'e noi broda.". Simply to repeat??? >>>>> >>>> >>>>Because pre-xorlo {lo} had default quantifiers. {lo broda} /used/ to me= an "at least one of all existing things which actually are broda", now it m= eans "something(s) which actually are broda" >>>>=20 >>>> >>>>>On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:44:06 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB= =C5=D7 wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>Only CLL is official, all the rest are just propositions. Quote from = here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo >>>>>>>""xorlo" is our (the baupla fuzykamni's) pet name for the gadri (art= icles, like "the" and "a" in English) BPFK proposal written mostly by xorxe= s." >>>>>>>or from here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri >>>>>>>Title says: "Proposed definitions". >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If you can read... >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>From the /exact/ /same/ /page/: >>>>>>"The gadri proposal (which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0= by the BPFK" >>>>>> >>>>>>xorlo was unanimously made official by the BPFK way back in 2004. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>And stop being a dick. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:32:58 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:28 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB= =C5=D7 wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Dictionary entry about {lo} shows CLL version (which has official, = but old meaning) of {lo}. And noted how under xorlo reform {lo} is understo= od now: lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda. That's new. >>>>>>>>>Also new definition see here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Sect= ion%3A+gadri >>>>>>>>>Dictionaries prefer to stick rather to official version (in CLL), = but offer a hand to whomever wants to know more of new changes made in Lojb= an. >>>>>>>>>No one forces you to abandon the official way of understanding {ga= dri}-meaning. >>>>>>>>>But if you want to know more of post-CLL changes to Lojban... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The "xorlo version" /IS/ the official version.=20 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:05:42 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1= =DB=C5=D7 wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Here is new definition: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>lo (LE) >>>>>>>>>>>Generic article. It converts a selbri, selecting its first argum= ent, into a sumti. The resulting=20 expression refers generically to any or some individual or individuals=20 that fit as the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be us= ed to indicate the number of individuals. An outer quantifier can be=20 used to quantify distributively over such individuals. >>>>>>>>>>>(Source: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Where did you find the word "veridical"? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/lo >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>lo LE ...KU cmavo=20 >>>>>>>>>>veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ... >>>>>>>>>>Under the xorlo reform, lo converts a selbri to a sumti in a rath= er generic way. In particular, lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda. >>>>>>>>>> * CLL 6.2=20 >>>>>>>>>> * jbovlaste=20 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>=D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:= 02:39 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1= =CC: >>>>>>>>>>>On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1= =DB=C5=D7 wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wr= ong. Cuz it may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a man = and I think the person is a man. >>>>>>>>>>>>>He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all that is why = I called him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}. >>>>>>>>>>>>>Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-mean= ing has changed dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always= has been/ veridical- it must and can only be used for things which /actual= ly are/ what you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/ non-v= eridical. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just chang= ed how quantification works. >>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>=D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 1= 8:18:40 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1= =CC: >>>>>>>>>>>>>On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 03:21:50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC= =C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote:=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is= a man.=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani = or la selpa'i.=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And they can say am I right or not.=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe = someone=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>who seems to be a man?=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then.=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway = when you=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer = to=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>a specific individual no matter the description.=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>v4hn=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>--=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Go= ogle Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>>>>>>>>>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_o= ut. >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>--=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do= zo'o >>>>>>>>>>>>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> --=20 >>>>>>>>>>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goog= le Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it= , send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>>>>>>>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out= . >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>--=20 >>>>>>>>>>mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do z= o'o >>>>>>>>>>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>>>>> --=20 >>>>>>>>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, = send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>>>>>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>--=20 >>>>>>>>mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'= o >>>>>>>>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>>>> --=20 >>>>>>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google G= roups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, se= nd an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>>>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>--=20 >>>>>>mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>> >>>>>>.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>>>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>> --=20 >>>>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group. >>>>>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>>>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>--=20 >>>>mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>> >>>>.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> --=20 >>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "lojban" group. >>>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> > --=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >=20 >=20 > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --1789658926-2119511777-1372078953=:30845 Content-Type: text/html; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, it's not an eve= nt contour but a modal, in the normal, non-Lojbanic, sense.  That is, = it contrasts with what is inherently possible and what is possible but not = actualized.  The point is that the "actual" at issue contrasts with "I= choose to describe as", a very different notion.

=

From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 = 7:21 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Ple= ase, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo}

On Mon, J= un 24, 2013 at 6:13 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volishavas@gmail.com> wrote:
{ca'a} is used for "actually is" (read CLL 10.19)
In my opinion, you don= 't want to see the truth and so I quit from the discussion.

No, ca'a an event contour stating that the time of the event happenin= g includes actuality.

YOU are the one who refuses to see the truth, and insulting John Cliffo= rd, who has been involved with Lojban, as far as I know, since before it /e= xisted/, in the process.
 
On Monday, June 24, 2013 5:40:20 PM UTC+6, c= lifford wrote:
<= div>
Because predicates in predication position are inherently veridical, e= lse the whole system collapses.  The stress on "actually" is to make t= he point in contrast to predicates in nominal position, where the reading d= epends upon the descriptor used.  ( Note again:there better be a very = good reason for using {le broda} for a non-broda.)

Sent from my iPad
<= br>On Jun 24, 2013, at 6:33, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <<= a href=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow">volis...@gmail.com> wrote:

You've said: now it means "somet= hing(s) which actually are broda".
My translation of {zo'e noi broda} is: "something, which are broda". Where = did you get "actually"???

On Monday, June 24, 2013 5:24:16 PM UTC+6,= aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 4:2= 1 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: "which has now been accepted by a vote of 11 to 0 by the BPFK, altho= ugh=20 it is technically subject to future changes until we declare ourselves=20 done".
And if you're right about xorlo then why does {lo}-entry contains= old version (veridical one)?

Because xorlo doesn'= t change the fact that lo is the veridical article and le is the non-veridi= cal one.
 
And if you think t= hat "veridical" is the right and from xorlo-update, then where "veridical" = word in in-xorlo {lo} definition?

Nowhere, because xorlo only describes the /changes/ i= t makes.
 
And wh= y then {lo}-entry says underneath "Under the xorlo reform, lo converts a selbri to a sumti in a rather generic way. In particular, lo b= roda =3D zo'e noi broda.". Simply to repeat???

Because pre-xorlo {lo} had default quantifiers. {lo b= roda} /used/ to mean "at least one of all existing things which actually ar= e broda", now it means "something(s) which actually are broda"
 

On Monday, Jun= e 24, 2013 3:44:06 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:4= 1 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
Only CLL is official, all the rest are just propositions. Quote from here: = http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo
""xorlo" is our (the baupla fuzykamni's) pet name for t= he gadri (articles, like "the" and "a" in English) BPFK proposal written mo= stly by xorxes."
or from here: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri
Title say= s: "Proposed definitions".

If you can read...

From the /exact/ /same/ /page/:
"The gadri proposal (which has now been accepted by= a vote of 11 to 0 by the BPFK"

xorlo was unanimously made official by the BPFK way back in 2004.

And stop being a dick.
 


On Monday, June 24, 2013 3:32:58 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:28 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <= span dir=3D"ltr"><volis...@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
Dictionary entry about {lo} shows CLL version (which has official, but old = meaning) of {lo}. And noted how under xorlo reform {lo} is understood now: = lo broda =3D zo'e noi broda. That's new.
Also new definition see here: http://www.lojban.org/ti= ki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri
Dictionaries pr= efer to stick rather to official version (in CLL), but offer a hand to whom= ever wants to know more of new changes made in Lojban.
No one forces you to abandon the official way of understanding {gadri}-mean= ing.
But if you want to know more of post-CLL changes to Lojban...

The "xorlo version" /IS/ the official version.


On Monday, June = 24, 2013 3:05:42 PM UTC+6, aionys wrote:


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:5= 7 AM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
Here is new definition:
lo (LE)
Generic article.= It converts a selbri, selecting its first argument, into a sumti. The resulting=20 expression refers generically to any or some individual or individuals=20 that fit as the first argument of the selbri. An inner quantifier can be used to indicate the number of individuals. An outer quantifier can be=20 used to quantify distributively over such individuals.
(Source: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri)

Where did you find the word "veridical"?

http://vlasisku.lojban.org/vlasisku/lo=

lo LE …KU cmavo

veridical descriptor: the one(s) that really is(are) ...
Under the xorlo reform, lo converts a selbri to a= sumti in a rather generic way. In particular, lo broda =3D = zo'e noi broda.
 

=D0=CF=CE=C5=C4=C5=CC=D8=CE=C9=CB, 24 =C9= =C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 3:02:39 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC= =D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 6:41 A= M, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
Using here {le nanmu} is not better and actually it might be wrong. Cuz it = may be that I just now saw a woman, which I described as a man and I think = the person is a man.
He/she has not any specific meaning for me at all t= hat is why I called him/her {lo nanmu}, but not {le ninmu}.
Please, everybody, read xorlo-update already cuz the {lo}-meaning has chang= ed dramatically since CLL, which is dated by 1997.
Lookup the meaning of the word "veridical". {lo} is and /always has been/ = veridical- it must and can only be used for things which /actually are/ wha= t you're describing them as. {le} is and /always has been/ non-veridical.
xorlo did not change the meaning of {lo} or {le}, it just changed how q= uantification works.
 
=D7=CF=D3=CB=D2=C5=D3=C5=CE=D8=C5, 23 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013 =C7., 18:18:40= UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 v4hn =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
On Sun, Jun 23, = 2013 at 03:21:50AM -0700, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 wrote:
> I may call a woman with {lo nanmu} if I think the person is a man.
> You can ask about that almost anybody, especially la tsani or la s= elpa'i.=20
> And they can say am I right or not.

Yes, you can do that. Obviously. How else would you describe someone
who seems to be a man?

Nevertheless, you say something ba'e wrong then.
Using {le nanmu} (which in my opinion is better style anyway when you
have someone specific in mind) you do not, because you refer to
a specific individual no matter the description.


v4hn
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