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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 06:11:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo}
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 Content preview:  The definition is doubly suspect. The object referred to is
    not incidentally ({noi}) a broda, but restrictedly ({poi}) one. And {zo'e}is
    either meaningless or ambiguous: it is defined as the gap filler, which is
    sometimes a mere something (that makes the sentence true) and sometimes as
    the obvious (etc.) thing. If you mean the former, then there is clearly no
    improvement over "old lo" (not sure just when this one was; it is not CLL,
    as noted elsewhere). If it means the latter things (as I suppose it is intended
    to here to bring in salience), then we have every gap referentially ambiguous,
    though always preserving truth (a little like formal mathematics, that).
   [...] 
 
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The definition is doubly suspect.=A0 The object referred to is not incident=
ally ({noi}) a broda, but restrictedly ({poi}) one.=A0 And {zo'e}is either =
meaningless or ambiguous: it is defined as the gap filler, which is sometim=
es a mere something (that makes the sentence true) and sometimes as the obv=
ious (etc.) thing.=A0 If you mean the former, then there is clearly no impr=
ovement over "old lo" (not sure just when this one was; it is not CLL, as n=
oted elsewhere).=A0 If it means the latter things (as I suppose it is inten=
ded to here to bring in salience), then we have every gap referentially amb=
iguous, though always preserving truth (a little like formal mathematics, t=
hat).=A0=20


________________________________
 From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo}
=20


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 5:08 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

No it isn't. All unfilled places are always implicitly filled with zo'e, so=
 rexorlo lo most certainly did have zo'e.
You misunderstand. {lo broda} =3D {*zo'e* noi ke'a broda}. Old-lo had a da =
there instead of zo'e. This is a large change.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o=A0

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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">The definition is dou=
bly suspect.&nbsp; The object referred to is not incidentally ({noi}) a bro=
da, but restrictedly ({poi}) one.&nbsp; And {zo'e}is either meaningless or =
ambiguous: it is defined as the gap filler, which is sometimes a mere somet=
hing (that makes the sentence true) and sometimes as the obvious (etc.) thi=
ng.&nbsp; If you mean the former, then there is clearly no improvement over=
 "old lo" (not sure just when this one was; it is not CLL, as noted elsewhe=
re).&nbsp; If it means the latter things (as I suppose it is intended to he=
re to bring in salience), then we have every gap referentially ambiguous, t=
hough always preserving truth (a little like formal mathematics, that).&nbs=
p; <br><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-fami=
ly: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div
 style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: =
12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">=
 <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Ian Johnson &lt;blin=
dbravado@gmail.com&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span>=
</b> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sen=
t:</span></b> Monday, June 24, 2013 7:43 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weig=
ht: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of=
 {le} vs. {lo}<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv1636822089"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 5:08 AM,=
 Jonathan Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto=
:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com">eye=
onus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"yiv1636822089gmail_ex=
tra"><div class=3D"yiv1636822089gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"yiv1636822089gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">No it isn't. All unfilled plac=
es are always implicitly filled with zo'e, so rexorlo lo most certainly did=
 have zo'e.</blockquote>
<div style=3D"">You misunderstand. {lo broda} =3D {*zo'e* noi ke'a broda}. =
Old-lo had a da there instead of zo'e. This is a large change.</div><div st=
yle=3D""><br></div><div style=3D"">mi'e la latro'a mu'o&nbsp;</div></div>
<br></div></div>


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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div><br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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