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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 07:36:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo}
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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I note in passing that the cited article says that {PA lo broda} =3D {PA br=
oda}, in contradiction to both practice (since xorlo, which exactly did awa=
y with this) and to the later description of what {PA lo broda} does.


________________________________
 From: =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <volishavas@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2013 12:48 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo}
=20


In my opinion, it's a {prexorlo}-way of thinking. Read these to clarify: ht=
tp://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri or http://www.lojban.org/tik=
i/How+to+use+xorlo .

=D3=D5=C2=C2=CF=D4=C1, 22 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013=9A=C7., 6:22:48 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=
=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 4:51 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <=
volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>I don't worry just about the case. But I want to know precise distinction =
between using {le} and {lo}. Yes, I'm Russian, but it doesn't mean anything=
 in the way of Lojban.
>>
>>From http://www.lojban.org/tiki/ BPFK+Section%3A+gadri I understood {lo} =
is anything, and {le} is {lo} that I have in my mind in the moment of speak=
ing. For example,
>>
>>mi ba terve'u lo karce - cuz right now I don't have in my mind image of m=
y future car I'll want, but
>>mi ca ca'a ponse le karce
>>
>>And if you're going to say that using {mi ca ca'a ponse lo karce} is perf=
ectly well, then I might ask why even {le} exists in Lojban.
>>
>
>{lo} can have a specific reference, but doesn't need to. Whatever is=20
referenced with {lo} must be something that satisfies the x1 of the=20
internal selbri.
>
>{le} must always have a specific reference.=20
Whatever is referenced with {le} can satisfy the x1 of the internal=20
selbri, but doesn't have to.
>
>
>You can't call a dog that looks very bear-like {lo cribe}, but you can cal=
l it {le cribe}.
>
>The difference is that {lo} means it /actually is/ whatever you're calling=
 it. {lo karce} is actually a car, {lo cribe} actually is a bear, while {le=
} merely means that you are describing a specific thing as that, whether or=
 not it actually is.
>
>If you don't know if someone is a man or a woman, you can call that person=
 {le ninmu} even if it turns out that's a man, but you can't call that pers=
on {lo ninmu}. (For anyone who's seen old SNL, Pat is a great example of th=
is.)
>
>=9A
>=D3=D5=C2=C2=CF=D4=C1, 22 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013=9A=C7., 3:54:34 UTC+6 =D0=CF=
=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
>>On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 2:04 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7=
 <volis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Hi! If I want to say "I have a car. The car is white.":
>>>>(I'm interested only in differences between {le} and {lo}.)
>>>>1. with {le}: mi ponse le karce .i le karce cu blabi
>>>>2. with {lo}: mi ponse lo karce .i lo karce cu blabi
>>>>I think the first choice is better. Am I right?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Let me put it this way: You're not wrong. It's perfectly fine to use {le=
} instead of {lo}, but I wouldn't myself say it's better to. I also wouldn'=
t say it's worse to.
>>>
>>>As long as the thing you're talking about can be the x1 of whatever you'=
re using to describe it (i.e. something you are calling {lo ve klama} must =
be a means of transportation), {lo} is never wrong, so when in doubt, use {=
lo}.
>>>=9A
>>>=D0=D1=D4=CE=C9=C3=C1, 21 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013=9A=C7., 17:26:12 UTC+6 =D0=
=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 .arpis. =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:
>>>>{le} is what you say when you have a particular thing in mind or when y=
ou want to indicate that the thing you're talking about isn't necessarily a=
 {broda}; {lo} is what you say whenever you don't want to indicate the prev=
ious fact. Most people use {le} for "the", but I think this is malgli.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 5:29 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>
>>>>>mi'a got a request to explain the difference between {lo} and {le} wit=
h good examples from English. The person who is asking for that is not sati=
sfied with what is described in BPFK sections of lojban.org. Please help.
>>>>>>
--=20
>>>>>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr=
oups "lojban" group.
>>>>>>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>>>>>>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/grou ps/opt_out.
>>>>>>=9A
>>>>>>=9A
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--=20
>>>>>
>>>>>=9A=9A =9A =9A =9A =9AAlex R
>>>> --=20
>>>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou=
ps "lojban" group.
>>>>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send =
an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group /lojban.
>>>>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/grou ps/opt_out.
>>>>=9A
>>>>=9A
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--=20
>>>
>>>mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>
>>>.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>>>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>
>> --=20
>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "lojban" group.
>>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an=
 email to lojban+un...@ googlegroups.com.
>>To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
>>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/ group/lojban.
>>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/ groups/opt_out.
>>=9A
>>=9A
>>
>
>
>--=20
>mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
>.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>
--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
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--=20
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">I note in passing tha=
t the cited article says that {PA lo broda} =3D {PA broda}, in contradictio=
n to both practice (since xorlo, which exactly did away with this) and to t=
he later description of what {PA lo broda} does.<br><div><span></span></div=
><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, tim=
es, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, n=
ew york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">=
  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Fro=
m:</span></b> =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 &lt;volishavas@gmail=
.com&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@go=
oglegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> =
Saturday, June 22, 2013 12:48 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">=
Subject:</span></b> Re:
 [lojban] Please, the best explanation of {le} vs. {lo}<br> </font> </div> =
<div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv1760455054">In my opinion, it's a {prexorlo}-way of thinking.=
 Read these to clarify: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri or=
 http://www.lojban.org/tiki/How+to+use+xorlo .<br><br>=D3=D5=C2=C2=CF=D4=C1=
, 22 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013&nbsp;=C7., 6:22:48 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=C1=D4=
=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:<blockquote class=3D"yiv1760455054gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex;"><div class=3D"yiv1760455054gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 21, 2=
013 at 4:51 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow">volis...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<=
br><blockquote class=3D"yiv1760455054gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
I don't worry just about the case. But I want to know precise distinction b=
etween using {le} and {lo}. Yes, I'm Russian, but it doesn't mean anything =
in the way of Lojban.<br><br>From <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" hre=
f=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+gadri">http://www.lojban.or=
g/tiki/ BPFK+Section%3A+gadri</a> I understood {lo} is anything, and {le} i=
s {lo} that I have in my mind in the moment of speaking. For example,<br>
<br>mi ba terve'u lo karce - cuz right now I don't have in my mind image of=
 my future car I'll want, but<br>mi ca ca'a ponse le karce<br><br>And if yo=
u're going to say that using {mi ca ca'a ponse lo karce} is perfectly well,=
 then I might ask why even {le} exists in Lojban.<br>
</blockquote><div><br>{lo} can have a specific reference, but doesn't need =
to. Whatever is=20
referenced with {lo} must be something that satisfies the x1 of the=20
internal selbri.<br><br>{le} must always have a specific reference.=20
Whatever is referenced with {le} can satisfy the x1 of the internal=20
selbri, but doesn't have to.<br><br><br>You can't call a dog that looks ver=
y bear-like {lo cribe}, but you can call it {le cribe}.<br><br>The differen=
ce is that {lo} means it /actually is/ whatever you're calling it. {lo karc=
e} is actually a car, {lo cribe} actually is a bear, while {le} merely mean=
s that you are describing a specific thing as that, whether or not it actua=
lly is.<br>
<br>If you don't know if someone is a man or a woman, you can call that per=
son {le ninmu} even if it turns out that's a man, but you can't call that p=
erson {lo ninmu}. (For anyone who's seen old SNL, Pat is a great example of=
 this.)<br>
<br>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv1760455054gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">=D3=D5=C2=C2=
=CF=D4=C1, 22 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013&nbsp;=C7., 3:54:34 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=
=D7=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 aionys =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:<blockquote class=3D"yiv176=
0455054gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div><div><div class=3D"yiv1760455054gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 2=
:04 PM, =E1=CE=C1=D4=CF=CC=C9=CA =E7=C1=DB=C5=D7 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow">volis...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bloc=
kquote class=3D"yiv1760455054gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">

Hi! If I want to say "I have a car. The car is white.":<br>(I'm interested =
only in differences between {le} and {lo}.)<br>1. with {le}: mi ponse le ka=
rce .i le karce cu blabi<br>2. with {lo}: mi ponse lo karce .i lo karce cu =
blabi<br>

I think the first choice is better. Am I right?<br></blockquote><div><br>Le=
t me put it this way: You're not wrong. It's perfectly fine to use {le} ins=
tead of {lo}, but I wouldn't myself say it's better to. I also wouldn't say=
 it's worse to.<br>

<br>As long as the thing you're talking about can be the x1 of whatever you=
're using to describe it (i.e. something you are calling {lo ve klama} must=
 be a means of transportation), {lo} is never wrong, so when in doubt, use =
{lo}.<br>

&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv1760455054gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">=D0=D1=D4=CE=C9=C3=
=C1, 21 =C9=C0=CE=D1 2013&nbsp;=C7., 17:26:12 UTC+6 =D0=CF=CC=D8=DA=CF=D7=
=C1=D4=C5=CC=D8 .arpis. =CE=C1=D0=C9=D3=C1=CC:<blockquote class=3D"yiv17604=
55054gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex;">

<div><div dir=3D"ltr">{le} is what you say when you have a particular thing=
 in mind or when you want to indicate that the thing you're talking about i=
sn't necessarily a {broda}; {lo} is what you say whenever you don't want to=
 indicate the previous fact. Most people use {le} for "the", but I think th=
is is malgli.<br>


</div></div><div><br><br><div class=3D"yiv1760455054gmail_quote"><div>On Fr=
i, Jun 21, 2013 at 5:29 AM, la arxokuna <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"" =
rel=3D"nofollow">gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv1760455054gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div>mi'a got a request =
to explain the difference between {lo} and {le} with good examples from Eng=
lish. The person who is asking for that is not satisfied with what is descr=
ibed in BPFK sections of <a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http=
://lojban.org/">lojban.org</a>. Please help.</div>

<span><font color=3D"#888888"><div><div>

<br></div>


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u></u> ps/opt_out</a>.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><span><font co=
lor=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp;Alex R</div></div>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote><div><div>


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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br></div></div=
><div>mu'o mi'e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i =
doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father.=
 :D )<br>


</div></blockquote><div><div>


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&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu'o mi'e .=
aionys.<br><br>.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu=
 do zo'o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br>

</blockquote>


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&nbsp;<br>
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