Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.141 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.141;
References: <8561d566-8f8b-4b46-9e7b-5fdbc1367b33@googlegroups.com> <51BDBA1D.80602@gmx.de> <CA+gZtgKULyTpGdDYwykN0H6bkUQJEVpoCSN=+PwCO4toXA+tGA@mail.gmail.com> <51BE419F.4090806@gmx.de> <1371434761.19218.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <51BEBACC.7090706@gmx.de> <1371471976.58028.YahooMailNeo@web184402.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <51CC134D.6080805@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <1372341657.86359.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 07:00:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL?
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <51CC134D.6080805@gmx.de>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-1412092350-275539706-1372341657=:86359"
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

---1412092350-275539706-1372341657=:86359
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Looking back through the record, it appears that the shift of {me} from "is=
 specific to" (originally as a way to create predicates from proper names) =
to "is one of (a member of)" applied to explicit, then implicit, sets took =
place first in Loglan, where the pressures creating it are not very clear.=
=A0 The shift was resisted in Lojban for a while but eventually acceded to,=
 though old habits persisted.=A0 It was not inherent in xorlo and, indeed, =
would not have been particularly relevant until the almost final stage, whe=
n the plural quantification/L-set interpretation of {lo} was in place.=A0 G=
iven that interpretation. it is important to have a short form for jest and=
 {me} appears to have been appropriated.=A0 That leaves the (admittedly les=
s pressing) need for a replacement for the old {me}, which is still recogni=
zed, though secondarily, in CLL.=A0 Apparently the ambiguity has ot bothere=
d people much for 20 years (odd, given how many less serious problems have
 exercised people in the interim).=A0=20


________________________________
 From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 5:26 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL?
=20

la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e
> In passing, I note {me} being used for "is a member of", which is not
> what it means, although I suppose it does include that meaning as a
> remote part.

{me} with the meaning of "among" is a big part of xorlo (as it gets invoked=
 any time an outer quantifier is used). It's also in the CLL.

10.2)=A0 la BALtazar. cu me le ci nolraitru
=A0 =A0 =A0  Balthazar is one-of-the-referents-of =93the three kings=94.
=A0 =A0 =A0  Balthazar is one of the three kings. [1]


It's the ma'oste that has uses another meaning, but {me} cannot mean both, =
and the xorlo/CLL meaning is the more useful/necessary one in my opinion. S=
o at least for some tersmu, "among" is what {me} means.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--
[1]: http://dag.github.io/cll/5/10/


-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


---1412092350-275539706-1372341657=:86359
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Looking back through =
the record, it appears that the shift of {me} from "is specific to" (origin=
ally as a way to create predicates from proper names) to "is one of (a memb=
er of)" applied to explicit, then implicit, sets took place first in Loglan=
, where the pressures creating it are not very clear.&nbsp; The shift was r=
esisted in Lojban for a while but eventually acceded to, though old habits =
persisted.&nbsp; It was not inherent in xorlo and, indeed, would not have b=
een particularly relevant until the almost final stage, when the plural qua=
ntification/L-set interpretation of {lo} was in place.&nbsp; Given that int=
erpretation. it is important to have a short form for jest and {me} appears=
 to have been appropriated.&nbsp; That leaves the (admittedly less pressing=
) need for a replacement for the old {me}, which is still recognized,
 though secondarily, in CLL.&nbsp; Apparently the ambiguity has ot bothered=
 people much for 20 years (odd, given how many less serious problems have e=
xercised people in the interim).&nbsp; <br><div><span><br></span></div><div=
><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, s=
erif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new yo=
rk, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <fo=
nt face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</s=
pan></b> selpa'i &lt;seladwa@gmx.de&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: =
bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-w=
eight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, June 27, 2013 5:26 AM<br> <b><span=
 style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] "we" and mas=
ses. A bug in the CLL?<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><b=
r>
la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e<br>&gt; In passing, I note {me} being used for "is=
 a member of", which is not<br>&gt; what it means, although I suppose it do=
es include that meaning as a<br>&gt; remote part.<br><br>{me} with the mean=
ing of "among" is a big part of xorlo (as it gets invoked any time an outer=
 quantifier is used). It's also in the CLL.<br><br>10.2)&nbsp; la BALtazar.=
 cu me le ci nolraitru<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;  Balthazar is one-of-the-ref=
erents-of =93the three kings=94.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;  Balthazar is one =
of the three kings. [1]<br><br><br>It's the ma'oste that has uses another m=
eaning, but {me} cannot mean both, and the xorlo/CLL meaning is the more us=
eful/necessary one in my opinion. So at least for some tersmu, "among" is w=
hat {me} means.<br><br>mu'o mi'e la selpa'i<br><br>--<br>[1]: http://dag.gi=
thub.io/cll/5/10/<br><br><br>-- You received this message because you are s=
ubscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.<br>To unsubscribe
 from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban=
+<a ymailto=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:unsubscr=
ibe@googlegroups.com">unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>To post to this =
group, send email to <a ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" href=3D"=
mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>Visit this =
group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.<br>For more options, visit =
<a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br><br><br><br><br></div> </div> =
</div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

---1412092350-275539706-1372341657=:86359--