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Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 09:33:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL?
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The slide seems to have come through the "one of the referents of" locution=
, which started when the noun involved was a proper name {me la Kraislr} as=
 "a thing called a Chrysler," more or less, which then got extended when no=
n-names were used: "a thing called a the three kings" doesn't make much sen=
se except as "a thing that is a referent of 'the three kings'" and hence to=
 member ship.=A0 Of course, if {me} is restricted to proper names it has ev=
en less use (but is till important when needed) and so the shift to jest is=
 probably wise.=A0 Pity, it made JCB so happy when he found it.


________________________________
 From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>=20
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL?
=20


Looking back through the record, it appears that the shift of {me} from "is=
 specific to" (originally as a way to create predicates from proper names) =
to "is one of (a member of)" applied to explicit, then implicit, sets took =
place first in Loglan, where the pressures creating it are not very clear.=
=A0 The shift was resisted in Lojban for a while but eventually acceded to,=
 though old habits persisted.=A0 It was not inherent in xorlo and, indeed, =
would not have been particularly relevant until the almost final stage, whe=
n the plural quantification/L-set interpretation of {lo} was in place.=A0 G=
iven that interpretation. it is important to have a short form for jest and=
 {me} appears to have been appropriated.=A0 That leaves the (admittedly les=
s pressing) need for a replacement for the old {me}, which is still recogni=
zed, though secondarily, in CLL.=A0 Apparently the ambiguity has ot bothere=
d people much for 20 years (odd, given how many less serious problems have
 exercised people in the interim).=A0=20


________________________________
 From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 5:26 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug in the CLL?
=20

la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e
> In passing, I note {me} being used for "is a member of", which is not
> what it means, although I suppose it does include that meaning as a
> remote part.

{me} with the meaning of "among" is a big part of xorlo (as it gets invoked=
 any time an outer quantifier is used). It's also in the CLL.

10.2)=A0 la BALtazar. cu me le ci nolraitru
=A0 =A0 =A0  Balthazar is one-of-the-referents-of =93the three kings=94.
=A0 =A0 =A0  Balthazar is one of the three kings. [1]


It's the ma'oste that has uses another meaning, but {me} cannot mean both, =
and the xorlo/CLL meaning is the more useful/necessary one in my opinion. S=
o at least for some tersmu, "among" is what {me} means.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--
[1]: http://dag.github.io/cll/5/10/


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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">The slide seems to ha=
ve come through the "one of the referents of" locution, which started when =
the noun involved was a proper name {me la Kraislr} as "a thing called a Ch=
rysler," more or less, which then got extended when non-names were used: "a=
 thing called a the three kings" doesn't make much sense except as "a thing=
 that is a referent of 'the three kings'" and hence to member ship.&nbsp; O=
f course, if {me} is restricted to proper names it has even less use (but i=
s till important when needed) and so the shift to jest is probably wise.&nb=
sp; Pity, it made JCB so happy when he found it.<br><div><span><br></span><=
/div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york,=
 times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roma=
n, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr
 size=3D"1">  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weigh=
t:bold;">From:</span></b> John E Clifford &lt;kali9putra@yahoo.com&gt;<br> =
<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> "lojban@googlegroups.c=
om" &lt;lojban@googlegroups.com&gt; <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bol=
d;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, June 27, 2013 9:00 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"=
font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A bug=
 in the CLL?<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br>
<div id=3D"yiv655644010"><div><div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#ff=
f;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;">Look=
ing back through the record, it appears that the shift of {me} from "is spe=
cific to" (originally as a way to create predicates from proper names) to "=
is one of (a member of)" applied to explicit, then implicit, sets took plac=
e first in Loglan, where the pressures creating it are not very clear.&nbsp=
; The shift was resisted in Lojban for a while but eventually acceded to, t=
hough old habits persisted.&nbsp; It was not inherent in xorlo and, indeed,=
 would not have been particularly relevant until the almost final stage, wh=
en the plural quantification/L-set interpretation of {lo} was in place.&nbs=
p; Given that interpretation. it is important to have a short form for jest=
 and {me} appears to have been appropriated.&nbsp; That leaves the (admitte=
dly less pressing) need for a replacement for the old {me}, which is
 still recognized,
 though secondarily, in CLL.&nbsp; Apparently the ambiguity has ot bothered=
 people much for 20 years (odd, given how many less serious problems have e=
xercised people in the interim).&nbsp; <br><div><span><br></span></div><div=
><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, times, se=
rif;font-size:12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, =
times, serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1">  <font fac=
e=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></=
b> selpa'i &lt;seladwa@gmx.de&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">=
To:</span></b> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:b=
old;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, June 27, 2013 5:26 AM<br> <b><span style=
=3D"font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] "we" and masses. A =
bug in the CLL?<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"yiv655644010y_msg_containe=
r"><br>
la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e<br>&gt; In passing, I note {me} being used for "is=
 a member of", which is not<br>&gt; what it means, although I suppose it do=
es include that meaning as a<br>&gt; remote part.<br><br>{me} with the mean=
ing of "among" is a big part of xorlo (as it gets invoked any time an outer=
 quantifier is used). It's also in the CLL.<br><br>10.2)&nbsp; la BALtazar.=
 cu me le ci nolraitru<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;  Balthazar is one-of-the-ref=
erents-of =93the three kings=94.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;  Balthazar is one =
of the three kings. [1]<br><br><br>It's the ma'oste that has uses another m=
eaning, but {me} cannot mean both, and the xorlo/CLL meaning is the more us=
eful/necessary one in my opinion. So at least for some tersmu, "among" is w=
hat {me} means.<br><br>mu'o mi'e la selpa'i<br><br>--<br>[1]: http://dag.gi=
thub.io/cll/5/10/<br><br><br>-- You received this message because you are s=
ubscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.<br>To unsubscribe
 from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban=
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groups.com</a>.<br>To post to this group, send email to <a rel=3D"nofollow"=
 ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailt=
o:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>Visit this group=
 at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.<br>For more options, visit <a re=
l=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/o=
pt_out">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br><br><br><br><br></=
div> </div> </div>  </div></div>


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