Received: from mail-ee0-f63.google.com ([74.125.83.63]:64119) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UsX41-000892-TQ for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 04:42:16 -0700 Received: by mail-ee0-f63.google.com with SMTP id e52sf348079eek.8 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 04:41:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=wogzQjX4QxqBEStSUuGzRk0rGlzV5ySDyYdgv1P/kBk=; b=qhSMUe+Pq4vLASo+1z8XcT7f0FzVHbvWMnoCCvOrHRIL5TO/erO7oGVKDBpId/bTjQ ZVJn00ufl5oE/k5WY6zZ394JcS8dcEgyD5QFzTFmjcnAmt842MpBHxGqqLs05G+paLKx sL5/A5/+CICrIVS+RmPvOTdSaFpxOwkI08lIrQzj1i9jacjd4shjdqgL5vy6jececJYP 7xI3IRRW+9vNWQX+i/M4MMuVZE6OurSU3o88SMQwf1625YphAn+AxSDkKa49imtBQtDr iBmsU/nUdshwsVdW/HpnJYBHLrMaD8vZf8mGcVK+SpGID2wqIZT1dQTdPM8gqcGv2sM4 DdRg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=wogzQjX4QxqBEStSUuGzRk0rGlzV5ySDyYdgv1P/kBk=; b=md5ZEd4iLkKxMsbKFTXq0dCWj4zTvBi5UsDnDj/BHa/n8Y6pDzpU1IfUzSdzlFDyfY aVG/i+aoeXa4C9qyKNTV4IUxhtOnmP6XrprU3+sDQzcK5OAaeKdka/E4u8uWvNGylyLf l6dzQZ1vodBPvK0bY/Poz3r/Fcy612Oy0bx+2/2JBsEuElOFKcogkxWFNRYHqAwwj1jw Qq/xem4VXHK4rw7bhr0E4hm24HHMzxpSyJUYq1q0vOsnGRNPaBUQ4kYhLR3Ba+zg3icq 1KOOkAtaf+0awqIwuUgpyiEjLdCjQf/3mf77aOJ8+tCnd73aKvvxH4zv1m5fgqbvCQUl nefQ== X-Received: by 10.180.19.7 with SMTP id a7mr91551wie.10.1372419718145; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 04:41:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.88.193 with SMTP id bi1ls161819wib.25.canary; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 04:41:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.9.170 with SMTP id a10mr1496327wib.6.1372419717233; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 04:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22f.google.com (mail-wi0-x22f.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fy11si230287wic.0.2013.06.28.04.41.57 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Jun 2013 04:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f; Received: by mail-wi0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id m6so633182wiv.14 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 04:41:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.207.43 with SMTP id lt11mr2044070wic.57.1372419717152; Fri, 28 Jun 2013 04:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.102] ([128.140.128.197]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id i1sm23341338wiz.6.2013.06.28.04.41.51 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Jun 2013 04:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51CD7675.5060109@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 13:41:41 +0200 From: Ilmen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:20.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/20.0 SeaMonkey/2.17.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Relative angular direction References: <51CCB932.1070308@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f as permitted sender) smtp.mail=ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050000050101050605020402" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050000050101050605020402 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for your explanation, now I understand much better how {jganu}=20 works. :) However {carna} doesn't seem to fit for translating my sentence =E2=80=94be= cause=20 there is nothing actually rotating=E2=80=94, unless I'm misunderstanding th= e=20 meaning of {carna}. Besides, I was expecting that it was probably possible to use an angle=20 value sign (+/=E2=88=92) for specifying the direction of rotation; and yet,= I=20 find rather strange the convention of ma'u (+) for=20 anticlockwise/leftwise and ni'u (=E2=88=92) for clockwise/rightwise, as in= =20 coordinate systems such as the number line the negative numbers are=20 usually on the _left-hand_ side and positive numbers on the _right-hand_=20 one. :S Anyway, here is my try with a measure in radians: =E2=80=A2 {li ma'u re pi'i pai fe'i bi lo'o se radno lo jganu be lo se zvat= i be=20 mi bei lo linji be lo stuna (be ri be'o) ce lo cmana} =E2=80=A2 "+2=CF=80/8 is the radian (leftwise) measure of what is an angle = from where=20 I am [vertex] subtended by the segment between something that is to the=20 eastern side (of where I am), and the mountain." Hrmph, "something that is to the eastern side of where I am" isn't a=20 defined point. Here it may works because we already have the angle=20 value, but what if the sentence begins with {li ma'u xo lo'o se radno...}? To fix this, it seems that I'd have to define a point on the East axis=20 that is located at the same distance from me than is the mountain. Or=20 perhaps am I missing something important. :P Any thought? Defining an angle with a point and a segment seems somewhat strange to=20 me. Isn't an angle defined by two rays and their common vertex? mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o *Jonathan Jones a =C3=A9crit :* > *On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Jonathan Jones ** >**wrote:* > > {jganu} defines the angle by a point (x2) and a line (x3). > > In this picture: > {la'o my.=E2=88=A0ACB.my jganu cy. lo linji be .abu ce by.} > http://mathworld.wolfram.com/images/eps-gif/Subtend_700.gif > I recommend using {radno > } or {carna > }. You can easily > specify "1/8 turn", with {pifi'ubi carna} > > > or {carna fo li pifi'ubi}, also. > > > And so you know, the direction place in {carna} defaults to > anti-clockwise, per the right-hand rule, and can be explicitly > stated simply with {li ma'u} (acw} and {li ni'u} (cw), as on a > polar coordinate grid. > > > *On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Ilmen ** >**wrote:* > > Hello everybody, > > I was trying to figure out how to express relative angular > direction in Lojban, but I've been hindered by the > unfathomable definition of {jganu}. > > I'd like to translate =C2=AB From me [vertex], there is a 1/8 > leftwise turn angle between East and the mountain =C2=BB (note: a > turn is a complete revolution, otherwordly 360=C2=B0 or 2=CF=80 r= ad). > How can I say this in Lojban? > > Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated. > Best regards, Ilmen. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --------------050000050101050605020402 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you for your explanation, now I understand much better how {jganu} works. :)

However {carna} doesn't seem to fit for translating my sentence =E2=80=94because there is nothing actually rotating=E2=80=94, unles= s I'm misunderstanding the meaning of {carna}.

Besides, I was expecting that it was probably possible to use an angle value sign (+/=E2=88=92) for specifying the direction of rota= tion; and yet, I find rather strange the convention of ma'u (+) for anticlockwise/leftwise and ni'u (=E2=88=92) for clockwise/rightwise= , as in coordinate systems such as the number line the negative numbers are usually on the left-hand side and positive numbers on the right-hand one. :S

Anyway, here is my try with a measure in radians:
=E2=80=A2 {li ma'u re pi'i pai fe'i bi lo'o= se radno lo jganu be lo se zvati be mi bei lo linji be lo stuna (be ri be'o) ce lo cmana}
=E2=80=A2 "+2=CF=80/8 is the radian (leftwise) measure of what is= an angle from where I am [vertex] subtended by the segment between something that is to the eastern side (of where I am), and the mountain."

Hrmph, "something that is to the eastern side of where I am" isn't a defined point. Here it may works because we already have the angle value, but what if the sentence begins with {li ma'u xo lo'o se radno...}?
To fix this, it seems that I'd have to define a point on the East axis that is located at the same distance from me than is the mountain. Or perhaps am I missing something important. :P

Any thought?

Defining an angle with a point and a segment seems somewhat strange to me. Isn't an angle defined by two rays and their common vertex?

mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o


Jonathan Jones a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
{jganu} defines the angle by a point (x2) and a line (x3).

In this picture:
{la'o my.=E2=88=A0ACB.my jganu cy. lo linji be .abu ce by.}
=C2=A03D"http://mathworld.wolfram.com/images/eps-gif/Subtend_70=
I recommend using {radno} or {carna}. You can easily specify "1/8 turn", with {pifi'ubi carna}

or {carna fo li pifi'ubi}, also.

And so you know, the direction place in {carna} defaults to anti-clockwise, per the right-hand rule, and can be explicitly stated simply with {li ma'u} (acw} and {li ni'u} (cw), as on a polar coordinate grid.


On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello everybody,
I was trying to figure out how to express relative angular direction in Lojban, but I've been hindered by the unfathomable definition of {jganu}.
I'd like to translate =C2=AB From me [vertex], there = is a 1/8 leftwise turn angle between East and the mountain =C2=BB (note: a turn is a complete revolutio= n, otherwordly 360=C2=B0 or 2=CF=80 rad).
How can I say this in Lojban?
Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated.
Best regards, Ilmen.=C2=A0

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