Received: from mail-wg0-f64.google.com ([74.125.82.64]:63017) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UtOhG-00039z-9L for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 30 Jun 2013 13:58:23 -0700 Received: by mail-wg0-f64.google.com with SMTP id m15sf892935wgh.19 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2013 13:58:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=djop1NF5ysOZSBcTFfHeuUD9PpPJWjjM/36gfDRk+Lc=; b=VpZUzQ2KmH/fmboXiGXObGea8hqg6qACHmPBtp2niGM6cPhnVGDNFTfc4G4rCR52u0 eDuNxrPzlX7Yi00k6+DZrucqLONNEkyj5V65DFxxDnlh0TRgLNP/+rsDINpS84opXWBk c+yobunIIcVHvxE8IKx0MKitZsj6Y4jqrHFEk1UIBGUZdu9q8foMWVyKxteT/jhvrdIL FMWsrcxi/rDuGZiNMgruyE+jaOuFKyTE0TQ5OabgSNE20yuuPM43OQhGvs4icBj24Qqw itBYiyg2sAEuaajRbXrqo1bVWlW3ecygu98K5//mgVWysTa1DTWu6y155sfg3f50/58g GQkg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=djop1NF5ysOZSBcTFfHeuUD9PpPJWjjM/36gfDRk+Lc=; b=iMki/AO7qaSOZp74Jf+U07NTk1vPaC2tmRtuesc2kyK62vEn1lA/pgIVYPMADuNDN/ fn06/BQqeeZxje+oqCm49KqlWmfhYTvLOLlOmw0+Vr64zFE21uiHz8J1qMZ5nrbcSAIv lQ2a9ndifFrxPCaQOluxC+UPlrL2e80vNEzr4zhr7ZIJmmykLqOORQtSNvO5gB294P0n mBQbuEYTEQs2whgKo/0xU8BJsZVnWiJH1ecMt9kZlp2E3QeVDac0UJIzyU+KHi+MT/7v 7Ab43sB7V3W2vaRHaSo813ktLkg2GYvgxW4KiMwV8dqlU1HIQ9qZxpuH/i/mUzRSa9Xn dPWg== X-Received: by 10.180.188.168 with SMTP id gb8mr438392wic.7.1372625881523; Sun, 30 Jun 2013 13:58:01 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.14.40 with SMTP id m8ls586358wic.47.canary; Sun, 30 Jun 2013 13:58:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.204.183.196 with SMTP id ch4mr1591100bkb.7.1372625881017; Sun, 30 Jun 2013 13:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x233.google.com (mail-la0-x233.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c03::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id nl4si758287bkb.2.2013.06.30.13.58.00 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 30 Jun 2013 13:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c03::233; Received: by mail-la0-x233.google.com with SMTP id fq12so3749414lab.10 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 2013 13:58:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.43.82 with SMTP id u18mr10300441lal.86.1372625880811; Sun, 30 Jun 2013 13:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.29.10 with HTTP; Sun, 30 Jun 2013 13:58:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <51CD7675.5060109@gmail.com> References: <51CCB932.1070308@gmail.com> <51CD7675.5060109@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 14:58:00 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Relative angular direction From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c34dec090d7c04e0655e17 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11c34dec090d7c04e0655e17 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {loka carna to'odu'a mi fo li fi'ubi ku stuzi lo cmana} "The property of turning from the East of me 1/8th (anti-clockwise turn) is the site of the mountain." On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 5:41 AM, Ilmen wrote: > Thank you for your explanation, now I understand much better how {jganu} > works. :) > > However {carna} doesn't seem to fit for translating my sentence =E2=80=94= because > there is nothing actually rotating=E2=80=94, unless I'm misunderstanding = the > meaning of {carna}. > > Besides, I was expecting that it was probably possible to use an angle > value sign (+/=E2=88=92) for specifying the direction of rotation; and ye= t, I find > rather strange the convention of ma'u (+) for anticlockwise/leftwise and > ni'u (=E2=88=92) for clockwise/rightwise, as in coordinate systems such a= s the > number line the negative numbers are usually on the *left-hand* side and > positive numbers on the *right-hand* one. :S > > Anyway, here is my try with a measure in radians: > =E2=80=A2 {li ma'u re pi'i pai fe'i bi lo'o se radno lo jganu be lo se zv= ati be mi > bei lo linji be lo stuna (be ri be'o) ce lo cmana} > =E2=80=A2 "+2=CF=80/8 is the radian (leftwise) measure of what is an angl= e from where I > am [vertex] subtended by the segment between something that is to the > eastern side (of where I am), and the mountain." > > Hrmph, "something that is to the eastern side of where I am" isn't a > defined point. Here it may works because we already have the angle value, > but what if the sentence begins with {li ma'u xo lo'o se radno...}? > To fix this, it seems that I'd have to define a point on the East axis > that is located at the same distance from me than is the mountain. Or > perhaps am I missing something important. :P > > Any thought? > > Defining an angle with a point and a segment seems somewhat strange to me= . > Isn't an angle defined by two rays and their common vertex? > > mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o > > > *Jonathan Jones a =C3=A9crit :* > > *On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Jonathan Jones ****w= rote: > * > >> {jganu} defines the angle by a point (x2) and a line (x3). >> >> In this picture: >> {la'o my.=E2=88=A0ACB.my jganu cy. lo linji be .abu ce by.} >> [image: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/images/eps-gif/Subtend_700.gif] >> I recommend using {radno } or >> {carna }. You can easily >> specify "1/8 turn", with {pifi'ubi carna} >> > > or {carna fo li pifi'ubi}, also. > >> >> And so you know, the direction place in {carna} defaults to >> anti-clockwise, per the right-hand rule, and can be explicitly stated >> simply with {li ma'u} (acw} and {li ni'u} (cw), as on a polar coordinate >> grid. >> >> >> *On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Ilmen ****wr= ote: >> * >> >>> Hello everybody, >>> >>> I was trying to figure out how to express relative angular direction in >>> Lojban, but I've been hindered by the unfathomable definition of {jganu= }. >>> >>> I'd like to translate =C2=AB From me [vertex], there is a 1/8 leftwise = turn >>> angle between East and the mountain =C2=BB (note: a turn is a complete >>> revolution, otherwordly 360=C2=B0 or 2=CF=80 rad). >>> How can I say this in Lojban? >>> >>> Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated. >>> Best regards, Ilmen. >>> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --001a11c34dec090d7c04e0655e17 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {loka carna to'odu'a mi fo li fi'ubi ku stuzi lo cmana}
&quo= t;The property of turning from the East of me 1/8th (anti-clockwise turn) i= s the site of the mountain."

On Fri,= Jun 28, 2013 at 5:41 AM, Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
Thank you for your explanation, now I understand much better how {jganu} works. :)

However {carna} doesn't seem to fit for translating my sentence =E2=80=94because there is nothing actually rotating=E2=80=94, unles= s I'm misunderstanding the meaning of {carna}.

Besides, I was expecting that it was probably possible to use an angle value sign (+/=E2=88=92) for specifying the direction of rota= tion; and yet, I find rather strange the convention of ma'u (+) for anticlockwise/leftwise and ni'u (=E2=88=92) for clockwise/right= wise, as in coordinate systems such as the number line the negative numbers are usually on the left-hand side and positive numbers on the right-hand one. :S

Anyway, here is my try with a measure in radians:
=E2=80=A2 {li ma'u re pi'i pai fe&#= 39;i bi lo'o se radno lo jganu be lo se zvati be mi bei lo linji be lo stuna (be ri be'o) ce lo cmana}
=E2=80=A2 "+2=CF=80/8 is the radian (leftwise) measure of wh= at is an angle from where I am [vertex] subtended by the segment between something that is to the eastern side (of where I am), and the mountain."

Hrmph, "something that is to the eastern side of where I am&qu= ot; isn't a defined point. Here it may works because we already hav= e the angle value, but what if the sentence begins with {li ma'u xo lo'o se radno...}?
To fix this, it seems that I'd have to define a point on the East axis that i= s located at the same distance from me than is the mountain. Or perhaps am I missing something important. :P

Any thought?

Defining an angle with a point and a segment seems somewhat strange to me. Isn't an angle defined by two rays and their common vertex?

mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o


Jonathan Jones a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
On Thu, Jun 27, 2013= at 4:47 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com><= b> wrote:
{jganu} defines the angle by a point (x2) and a line (x3).

In this picture:
{la'o my.=E2=88=A0ACB.my jganu cy. lo linji be .abu ce by.}=
=C2=A03D"http://mathworld.wolfram.com/images/eps-gif/S=
I recommend using {radno} or {carna}. You can easily specify = "1/8 turn", with {pifi'ubi carna}

or {carna fo li pifi'ubi}, also.

And so you know, the direction place in {carna} defaults to anti-clockwise, per the right-hand rule, and can be explicitly stated simply with {li ma'u} (acw} and {li ni= 9;u} (cw), as on a polar coordinate grid.


On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Ilmen <ilmen.pok= ebip@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello everybody,
I was trying to figure out how to express relative angular direction in Lojban, but I've been hindered by the unfathomable definition of {jganu}.
I'd like to translate =C2=AB From me [vertex], th= ere is a 1/8 leftwise turn angle between East and the mountain =C2=BB (note: a turn is a complete revolutio= n, otherwordly 360=C2=B0 or 2=CF=80 rad).
How can I say this in Lojban?
Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated.
Best regards, Ilmen.=C2=A0

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=C2=A0
=C2=A0



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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