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Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2013 15:39:17 +0200
Message-ID: <CAMXsxUFy8yLJHFp8Cs02CxqAn=OJktoR+002pMxkpWFvCA=zjg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Instruction on how to translate lojbanic dictionary
 to other languages
From: "Muhammad Na'el" <muhammad.nael@gmail.com>
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 Content preview:  Wouldn't that require quite the sizable corpus? That'd be
   fairly difficult to collect and were we to try... I'm not aware of many non-technical
    lojban texts. Even worse, most of these texts discuss lojban itself; they're
    very specialized on top of being technical. [...] 
 
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Wouldn't that require quite the sizable corpus? That'd be fairly difficult
to collect and were we to try... I'm not aware of many non-technical lojban
texts. Even worse, most of these texts discuss lojban itself; they're very
specialized on top of being technical.

On the other hand, I think it's doable. The English definitions are usually
pretty broad; but the individual Eng words are more focused. The translator
(or lexicographer?) would have to get the gestalt of the set of the
individual Eng definition words, and then find the best equivalent set in
his/her language so that the lojban concept is the same in both languages
(En/other) to _his/her_ mind.


On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 12:53 PM, iesk <pa.fae@gmx.de> wrote:

> Making a bilingual Lojban dictionary would be (a lot of work but probably=
)
> a rewarding thing to do.
>
> However, I don't know what Lojban words mean until I speak Lojban.
>
> Your instructions are not about making a bilingual Lojban dictionary (as
> one could be tempted to assume), but about making a translation of the
> (initial) English description of Lojbanic words, the semantic starting
> points from which Lojbanic meanings were to develop (and have developed;
> but, again, to know whence, I'd have to be a competent speaker of Lojban)=
.
>
> A translation of those English semantic sketches may be useful for some
> people under some circumstances. However, the should be very big warning
> signs put around any such translation. A translation of one of the Englis=
h
> gismu definitions would have only a non-trivial relationship to the meani=
ng
> of the gismu.
>
> Or so I think.
>
> iesk
>
> Le samedi 6 juillet 2013 08:01:14 UTC+2, la arxokuna a =C3=A9crit :
>>
>> Wanna translate all gismu and cmavo definitions to the language that you
>> speak and have them in jbovlaste?
>> Here is an instruction on how to do that faster.
>>
>> 1. Open the following document
>> https://docs.google.com/**spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D**
>> 0Ahngu1CNj7wddFltdkVpZFNLWlQ5d**VN1VVpXSnphVVE&usp=3Dsharing<https://doc=
s.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0Ahngu1CNj7wddFltdkVpZFNLWlQ5dVN1VVpXSnp=
hVVE&usp=3Dsharing>
>> 2. Choose menu File --> "Download as". Choose Excel of OpenOffice format=
.
>> Open the document in your favorite spreadsheet editor.
>> If you prefer using Google Spreadsheet choose File --> "Make a copy".
>> 3. Now you can see gismu in the first tab, cmavo in the second tab. Star=
t
>> translating by filling in columns "My definition" and "My notes" using
>> "English definition" and "English notes" as the source of translation.
>> 4. Save your file. Send it to the following addresses:
>> thelogicall...@gmail.**com and gleki.is...@gmail.com . The title of your
>> message should be "vlaste translated into [YOUR LANGUAGE]"
>> 5. Now wait for us to quickly mass-import all the definitions to
>> jbovlaste (using web-interface would very tiresome for you)
>>
>> If e.g. you translated only gismu don't hesitate to send them alone.
>>
>> As for cmavo definitions they are usually cryptic. So don't hesitate to
>> ask us about the *real* meaning of each cmavo you don't understand. I
>> myself translated all cmavo to my native language and I know that it can=
 be
>> hard (but necessary).
>>
>> You may ask such questions either in this forum or using the mentioned
>> e-mail addresses.
>> Any feedback is welcomed.
>>
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>


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<div dir=3D"ltr">Wouldn&#39;t that require quite the sizable corpus? That&#=
39;d be fairly difficult to collect and were we to try... I&#39;m not aware=
 of many non-technical lojban texts. Even worse, most of these texts discus=
s lojban itself; they&#39;re very specialized on top of being technical.<di=
v>
<br></div><div>On the other hand, I think it&#39;s doable. The English defi=
nitions are usually pretty broad; but the individual Eng words are more foc=
used. The translator (or lexicographer?) would have to get the gestalt of t=
he set of the individual Eng definition words, and then find the best equiv=
alent set in his/her language so that the lojban concept is the same in bot=
h languages (En/other) to _his/her_ mind.<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 12:53 PM, iesk <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pa.fae@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">pa.f=
ae@gmx.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Making a bilingual Lojban dictionary would be (a lot of work but probably) =
a rewarding thing to do.<br><br>However, I don&#39;t know what Lojban words=
 mean until I speak Lojban. <br><br>Your instructions are not about making =
a bilingual Lojban dictionary (as one could be tempted to assume), but abou=
t making a translation of the (initial) English description of Lojbanic wor=
ds, the semantic starting points from which Lojbanic meanings were to devel=
op (and have developed; but, again, to know whence, I&#39;d have to be a co=
mpetent speaker of Lojban).<br>
<br>A translation of those English semantic sketches may be useful for some=
 people under some circumstances. However, the should be very big warning s=
igns put around any such translation. A translation of one of the English g=
ismu definitions would have only a non-trivial relationship to the meaning =
of the gismu.<br>
<br>Or so I think.<br><br>iesk<br><br>Le samedi 6 juillet 2013 08:01:14 UTC=
+2, la arxokuna a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div class=3D"im">
<div>Wanna translate all gismu and cmavo definitions to the language that y=
ou speak and have them in jbovlaste?</div><div>Here is an instruction on ho=
w to do that faster.</div><div><br></div><div>1. Open the following documen=
t</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D0Ahngu1CNj7wd=
dFltdkVpZFNLWlQ5dVN1VVpXSnphVVE&amp;usp=3Dsharing" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//docs.google.com/<u></u>spreadsheet/ccc?key=3D<u></u>0Ahngu1CNj7wddFltdkVp=
ZFNLWlQ5d<u></u>VN1VVpXSnphVVE&amp;usp=3Dsharing</a><br>
</div><div>2. Choose menu File --&gt; &quot;Download as&quot;. Choose Excel=
 of OpenOffice format. Open the document in your favorite spreadsheet edito=
r.</div><div>If you prefer using Google Spreadsheet choose File --&gt; &quo=
t;Make a copy&quot;.</div>
<div>3. Now you can see gismu in the first tab, cmavo in the second tab. St=
art translating by filling in columns &quot;My definition&quot; and &quot;M=
y notes&quot; using &quot;English definition&quot; and &quot;English notes&=
quot; as the source of translation.</div>
</div><div>4. Save your file. Send it to the following addresses: <a>thelog=
icall...@gmail.<u></u>com</a> and <a>gleki.is...@gmail.com</a> . The title =
of your message should be &quot;vlaste translated into [YOUR LANGUAGE]&quot=
;</div>
<div class=3D"im"><div>5. Now wait for us to quickly mass-import all the de=
finitions to jbovlaste (using web-interface would very tiresome for you)</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>If e.g. you translated only gismu don&#39;t hesitate=
 to send them alone.</div>
<div><br></div><div>As for cmavo definitions they are usually cryptic. So d=
on&#39;t hesitate to ask us about the <b>real</b>=C2=A0meaning of each cmav=
o you don&#39;t understand. I myself translated all cmavo to my native lang=
uage and I know that it can be hard (but necessary).</div>
<div><br></div><div>You may ask such questions either in this forum or usin=
g the mentioned e-mail addresses.</div><div>Any feedback is welcomed.</div>=
</div></blockquote><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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=C2=A0<br>
=C2=A0<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><font size=3D"1" face=3D"&#39;arial narrow&#39;, sans=
-serif" color=3D"#666666"><br></font></div><font face=3D"&#39;arial narrow&=
#39;, sans-serif" color=3D"#666666">=E2=80=BA=E2=80=BA MN</font></div>

</div></div>

<p></p>

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