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Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 07:51:15 -0400
From: Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Someone please explain {xrani} to me.
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Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis wrote:
> pe'i
> lu lo nu farlu cu xrani lo tixnu lo ka makau cidni lo tuple kei lo ka lo
> ciblu be ce'u cu flecu fi lo bartu li'u mu'a
>
> mu'o
> mi'e .asiz.
>
>
> On 9 July 2013 13:31, Frank <frankdmartinez@gmail.com
> <mailto:frankdmartinez@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On Tuesday, July 9, 2013, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>
>
>         The x3 and x4 don't make any sense to me.
>
>         xrani =3D x1 (event) injures/harms/damages victim x2 in property
>         x3 (ka) resulting in injury x4 (state).
>
>         Can someone please tell me how to comment on my daughter's scrape=
d
>         knee in a way that fills all 4 places?  Because I think the x3 is=
 BS
>         and should be dropped.
>
>
>     Just so We're on the same page, so to speak, why do You think it's "B=
S"?
>
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asiz's response seems OK to me.  Perhaps the x3 might refer more=20
specifically to the skin integrity, which is clearly a property.

It isn't necessarily the case that filling in x3 obviates the need for=20
x4 and vice versa, as was suggested.  Rather, I think it is that we=20
don't have all that rich a form of expressing this in English such that=20
we know how to express both places at once, and we have rather less=20
terminology options for x3.

Usually in (non-medical) English we refer to the x4, which is the=20
resulting injury (the scrape in her knee), which is why Robin doesn't=20
see the need for x3.

But if the resulting state is death, the x3 might be the specific cause=20
of death.  Concussion, stroke, pain, are all possible x4 injuries that=20
could result from different x3 property injuries.

In medical contexts, it becomes more clear how to use both. x4 would be=20
used to express the symptoms, whereas x3 would express the damage=20
causing the symptoms.  "head trauma", an x3, might result in a variety=20
of x4 states (concussion, coma, paralysis).

lojbab

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