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[216.109.115.227]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ga4si3976402pac.1.2013.07.10.07.27.59 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Jul 2013 07:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.227 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.115.227; Received: from [66.196.81.158] by nm27.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2013 14:27:58 -0000 Received: from [66.196.81.154] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2013 14:27:58 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1030.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2013 14:27:58 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 776603.55674.bm@omp1030.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 47146 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jul 2013 14:27:58 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: P95nHgwVM1mnE93YC_DVknlR35MCx10_.XL6BlZF5X5rCWQ 83lar2rQSXcxiUgMmQu0LSb5JTq3HNk1KX0m0suJIelBTuNzFnATrok5.F4M JzbIVv0R.MmIG7jTN2yysqOVFR_RtzQrEsSINV_ApdqVQWxCTIc2DSUyMpL7 Sz08Ei__Kcv9ip7sIR8TcxEggWNo6wyHVIWz4bO6ATHwtIMguStv_M6Jz_Tc 8Fz7M9Nw7qTa_9M0VAQ67XLb1ZzUfsRiBvFO14NJdhnkXwH6OlC5c2tMEjjj Vwa_pv_ZNW06_vkK20L7uTGStD3s2M0lEGV8R8JdkIDQ90SYuiccjpfqZggb hTvKXlrFjuMUOqDw.gULiDK9Abp6Yt0KM5yMMQiF7YmR9xYCvDz5HogpYj0. sY6kRl4cOjbAxGL2QCJfWBIymkNdy3oNefOpkp4jVQbh_cdM2uAemcIf.Nkr R.FHSAZwHkKo4VlW_K.gPm96HHpgjBkIONgxQoEOL_rjtHpEqDZZlVJjTXm1 C8dJ1lYBMc1nmhdVVtCQ3esNfDSjSc0KASnx60sDm1IJWS9N6bqOqYgk3o7q sTsttsnKHXiz2cai1FmpU8d5Tx11.FuUgLlA6R0W8UJ1r6QK2KKaNTKs_4jy XmVJ1Qj3mKDLgJxgieEfNthBeVmosc2xz3y3VZ.g1mraqQO5vn12XazelaNU _PEWi4_TZLHu7cQWE1JQqjs9VEUdgP62odLG3Pef887TwryMyi25xxY9b479 ycDtnON1zLuN4veJkwh55iapMdiDDFQi0JZPg_kMLiuN4K5CABeBnelq0N4A eRha.DgxP9x7HGYnHJeTQTr41FEi0Vag40ECSktFb74ply_M8JSV0MBXKetd 1jUKqF9hQ81nyFgYdRjaGgKfI8Xx7P4qWCDrZEamj9iM- Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 10 Jul 2013 07:27:58 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,SUYgeW91IHdhbnQgdG8gdXNlIHRoZSBzdGFuZGFyZCBvZiBpbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsIGNvbW1lcmNlIChldGMuKSwgdGhlbiB5b3UgYXJlIHN0dWNrIHdpdGggYSBzZXZlbi1kYXkgd2VlaywgYmVnaW5uaW5nIHdpdGggU3VuZGF5IGFuZCBwcm9jZWVkaW5nIHdpdGggc29tZSB2YXJpYW50IG9mIE1vb24sIFdhciBHb2QsIENoaWVmIEdvZCwgU3Rvcm0gR29kLCBMb3ZlIEdvZGRlc3MgYW5kIE9sZCBGYXJ0LCBhbmQgd2l0aCBhIGRvemVuIG1vbnRocyBvZiBxdWl0ZSBpbmV4cGxpY2FibGUgbWVhbmluZ3MgaW4gdGgBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.148.557 References: <636f8283-17f1-4bb8-9bb5-6b88ba1d9c7d@googlegroups.com> <4ee3f3c5-f4fc-4420-8adb-6d706e854e4a@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <1373466478.46553.YahooMailNeo@web184404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 07:27:58 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Making a jbo locale file and package for installation, need some suggestions. To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.227 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-420974808-2048275714-1373466478=:46553" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ---420974808-2048275714-1373466478=:46553 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IF you want to use the standard of international commerce (etc.), then you = are stuck with a seven-day week, beginning with Sunday and proceeding with = some variant of Moon, War God, Chief God, Storm God, Love Goddess and Old F= art, and with a dozen months of quite inexplicable meanings in their contex= t (the numbered ones are two off in each case, for example) and randomly va= rying lengths.=A0 Color names for the days of the week are as cultural as a= nything else, since different cultures (and languages) divide the spectrum = differently, with no guarantee that here will be seven sections.=A0=A0 Find= ing names for the months is even trickier (unless you go to numbers again) = since associations with what happens in that month will vary from place to = place (one country's seed time is another's harvest,and so on).=A0 There ma= y be more rational approaches (13 months of 28 days each and an occasional = fiddle, say, which makes weeks have some meaning), just as there are more reasonable number systems (for some purposes), but for acceptance in = the real world, this creaking structure seems the best to use, while keepin= g an eye out for a successful reform. ________________________________ From: Feilen Haksan To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 9:06 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Making a jbo locale file and package for installa= tion, need some suggestions. =20 Most also use a decimal number system, it doesn't make it any less arbitrar= y. I do think that colors would reduce confusion and be significantly more = intuitive, however a more official tally of active jbopre would probably be= smart.=20 As for months, have we still settled on gregorian? It's, at the very least,= widespread, but we don't have a zero index. (This may not be a problem how= ever, as I don't think locale specifications take that into account)=20 On Jul 10, 2013 9:53 AM, "Michael Turniansky" wrote= : > >On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 9:27 AM, la arxokuna = wrote: > >Colors on the other hand aren't because you made it (or it's used in China= ?)=20 >>>I still think neutrality is important, but gleki brought up a good point= on IRC : There's no way to be neutral when we're using someone else's cale= ndar already. >> >> >>ti'e even bacteria have 7-day cycles. so it might be neutral. Of course w= e might ask {ma jalge?}. Is it humanity that forces bacteria to follow this= worldwide artificial cycle. Or is it nature that forces people to use it's= 7-day cycle? >=A0 As I brought up back in Octobor 2010, out of 7 billion people in the w= orld, of those that use a week system, approximately only 25 million people= (the Igbo) use a other-than-7-day system. =A0So, while it might irk them, = the 7 day system is pretty much widespread on this planet. > > >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa > > --=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Goo= gle Groups "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lo= jban/t7ypnWTR2S0/unsubscribe. >To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to lojban= +unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >=A0 >=A0 > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ---420974808-2048275714-1373466478=:46553 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
IF you want to use th= e standard of international commerce (etc.), then you are stuck with a seve= n-day week, beginning with Sunday and proceeding with some variant of Moon,= War God, Chief God, Storm God, Love Goddess and Old Fart, and with a dozen= months of quite inexplicable meanings in their context (the numbered ones = are two off in each case, for example) and randomly varying lengths.  = Color names for the days of the week are as cultural as anything else, sinc= e different cultures (and languages) divide the spectrum differently, with = no guarantee that here will be seven sections.   Finding names fo= r the months is even trickier (unless you go to numbers again) since associ= ations with what happens in that month will vary from place to place (one c= ountry's seed time is another's harvest,and so on).  There may be more rational approaches (13 months of 28 days each and an occasional fidd= le, say, which makes weeks have some meaning), just as there are more reaso= nable number systems (for some purposes), but for acceptance in the real wo= rld, this creaking structure seems the best to use, while keeping an eye ou= t for a successful reform.


=
From: Feil= en Haksan <feilen1000@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 9:06 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Making a= jbo locale file and package for installation, need some suggestions.

Most also use a decimal number system, it doesn't make it any less ar= bitrary. I do think that colors would reduce confusion and be significantly= more intuitive, however a more official tally of active jbopre would proba= bly be smart.
As for months, have we still settled on gregorian? It's, a= t the very least, widespread, but we don't have a zero index. (This may not= be a problem however, as I don't think locale specifications take that int= o account)
On Jul 10, 2013 9:53 AM, "Michael T= urniansky" <mturniansky@gmail.= com> wrote:

On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 9:27 AM, la arxokuna <gleki= .is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
Colors on the other hand aren't because you made it (or it= 's used in China?)
I still think neutrality is important, but gleki brought u= p a good point on IRC : There's no way to be neutral when we're using someo= ne else's calendar already.

ti'e even bacteria have 7-day cycles. so it might be neutral. Of cours= e we might ask {ma jalge?}. Is it humanity that forces bacteria to follow t= his worldwide artificial cycle. Or is it nature that forces people to use i= t's 7-day cycle?

  As I brought up back in Octobor 2010, out of = 7 billion people in the world, of those that use a week system, approximate= ly only 25 million people (the Igbo) use a other-than-7-day system.  S= o, while it might irk them, the 7 day system is pretty much widespread on t= his planet.

          --gejyspa

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