Received: from mail-pb0-f64.google.com ([209.85.160.64]:62741) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UwxUj-00005p-Vh for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2013 09:44:04 -0700 Received: by mail-pb0-f64.google.com with SMTP id uo1sf2201165pbc.9 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2013 09:43:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=EqPSlUDeK0vxEBCiHIbRv4c+TY73vFX5WHJtwNCAjos=; b=m67Jt1Q53mDKa17t/3mSmCxgbDTXuOqsHJNnVVR0AlNomI/uUKBVhbPHJBJn6/TVqn IbV5gKukUGg69fKsHJY5/uy2lueLCQp2XRIsvyMCj1hKMr7A0Uilydb3DPncYoXHCrez PzLPyaijA1AoIVoD+flUGn46YhzdKzbvlJcd//PXR3u5HjdlSDoWgJg3Wame1SHJKEPv 17hjNHUuQkOQmZRUG1rkZ9uUHC9RbtgibHp2KP+5TuZEUnCutdBbA1hfqyR2M3IZFvTX NdZnqsVMFF85SJifc5i9L+vFtxSD3ZcdZHdiDks1nBzYEU1kCI2zdzo/u/lODCiCnFCA IYNw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=EqPSlUDeK0vxEBCiHIbRv4c+TY73vFX5WHJtwNCAjos=; b=ecGDgIAN7KRt4BcBQ3pLgg/lirIm+bjhEAITGpqwjoylC/dx3aFZiGVpbcStZ8bZ2k Qv208SOVZJQOZyEnUzPKonsRLpF1TV2df9D2tfm1CNoTgJddtS/5G6vn9TQcpl28N32v XHlmzLPPvSRadYRiecXBJvhbC6aZOtVgolmnUgJ+pfvTj+iOE7ga1j87cJqHuCLYmKQa 86IgBG9RnwGXY1k2MBaz5mTNsf0pNgJTYTcvtpFMiWTJeXGBc3n9P97jDeBjCYpbjzk3 AlcTsSxXRRqkCXEuXHfJQuAaKDMqiE/nQbVvyjzl3Bv7lzUmAcOOXYYsRmDMvkeTEN9y 9O4w== X-Received: by 10.182.97.135 with SMTP id ea7mr46696obb.24.1373474630852; Wed, 10 Jul 2013 09:43:50 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.107.41 with SMTP id gz9ls6472814igb.24.canary; Wed, 10 Jul 2013 09:43:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.106.78 with SMTP id gs14mr43617328igb.7.1373474630336; Wed, 10 Jul 2013 09:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x22a.google.com (mail-ie0-x22a.google.com [2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j3si5873491igx.3.2013.07.10.09.43.50 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Jul 2013 09:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22a; Received: by mail-ie0-f170.google.com with SMTP id e11so16102225iej.1 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2013 09:43:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.82.104 with SMTP id h8mr12270429igy.17.1373474629808; Wed, 10 Jul 2013 09:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.29.179 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Jul 2013 09:43:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <51DD4AB3.5090108@lojban.org> References: <20130709161436.GF4227@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <51DD4AB3.5090108@lojban.org> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 12:43:49 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Someone please explain {xrani} to me. From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f503b166af97004e12afb29 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --e89a8f503b166af97004e12afb29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 7:51 AM, Robert LeChevalier wrot= e: > Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis wrote: > >> pe'i >> lu lo nu farlu cu xrani lo tixnu lo ka makau cidni lo tuple kei lo ka lo >> ciblu be ce'u cu flecu fi lo bartu li'u mu'a >> >> mu'o >> mi'e .asiz. >> >> >> On 9 July 2013 13:31, Frank > >> wrote: >> >> On Tuesday, July 9, 2013, Robin Lee Powell wrote: >> >> >> The x3 and x4 don't make any sense to me. >> >> xrani =3D x1 (event) injures/harms/damages victim x2 in property >> x3 (ka) resulting in injury x4 (state). >> >> Can someone please tell me how to comment on my daughter's scrap= ed >> knee in a way that fills all 4 places? Because I think the x3 i= s >> BS >> and should be dropped. >> >> >> Just so We're on the same page, so to speak, why do You think it's >> "BS"? >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com >> >> >. >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com >> >. >> >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >> . >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >> . >> > > > asiz's response seems OK to me. Perhaps the x3 might refer more > specifically to the skin integrity, which is clearly a property. > > It isn't necessarily the case that filling in x3 obviates the need for x4 > and vice versa, as was suggested. Rather, I think it is that we don't ha= ve > all that rich a form of expressing this in English such that we know how = to > express both places at once, and we have rather less terminology options > for x3. > > Usually in (non-medical) English we refer to the x4, which is the > resulting injury (the scrape in her knee), which is why Robin doesn't see > the need for x3. > > But if the resulting state is death, the x3 might be the specific cause o= f > death. Concussion, stroke, pain, are all possible x4 injuries that could > result from different x3 property injuries. > > In medical contexts, it becomes more clear how to use both. x4 would be > used to express the symptoms, whereas x3 would express the damage causing > the symptoms. "head trauma", an x3, might result in a variety of x4 stat= es > (concussion, coma, paralysis). > > lojbab > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com > . > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban > . > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out > . > > > This seems like implicit {ja'e} more than anything, which makes it still somewhat redundant (not that this invalidates it, as the gimste is not minimal). mi'e la latro'a mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --e89a8f503b166af97004e12afb29 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On W= ed, Jul 10, 2013 at 7:51 AM, Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>= wrote:
Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis wrote:
pe'i
lu lo nu farlu cu xrani lo tixnu lo ka makau cidni lo tuple kei lo ka lo ciblu be ce'u cu flecu fi lo bartu li'u mu'a

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.


On 9 July 2013 13:31, Frank <frankdmartinez@gmail.com
<mailto:fr= ankdmartinez@gmail.com>> wrote:

=A0 =A0 On Tuesday, July 9, 2013, Robin Lee Powell wrote:


=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 The x3 and x4 don't make any sense to me.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 xrani =3D x1 (event) injures/harms/damages victim x2 in pro= perty
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 x3 (ka) resulting in injury x4 (state).

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Can someone please tell me how to comment on my daughter= 9;s scraped
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 knee in a way that fills all 4 places? =A0Because I think t= he x3 is BS
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 and should be dropped.


=A0 =A0 Just so We're on the same page, so to speak, why do You think i= t's "BS"?

=A0 =A0 --
=A0 =A0 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google<= br> =A0 =A0 Groups "lojban" group.
=A0 =A0 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, =A0 =A0 send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
=
=A0 =A0 <mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>.<= div class=3D"im">
=A0 =A0 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com
=A0 =A0 <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>.

=A0 =A0 Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
=A0 =A0 For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out= .


asiz's response seems OK to me. =A0Perhaps the x3 might refer more spec= ifically to the skin integrity, which is clearly a property.

It isn't necessarily the case that filling in x3 obviates the need for = x4 and vice versa, as was suggested. =A0Rather, I think it is that we don&#= 39;t have all that rich a form of expressing this in English such that we k= now how to express both places at once, and we have rather less terminology= options for x3.

Usually in (non-medical) English we refer to the x4, which is the resulting= injury (the scrape in her knee), which is why Robin doesn't see the ne= ed for x3.

But if the resulting state is death, the x3 might be the specific cause of = death. =A0Concussion, stroke, pain, are all possible x4 injuries that could= result from different x3 property injuries.

In medical contexts, it becomes more clear how to use both. x4 would be use= d to express the symptoms, whereas x3 would express the damage causing the = symptoms. =A0"head trauma", an x3, might result in a variety of x= 4 states (concussion, coma, paralysis).

lojbab


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This seems like implicit {ja'e} more tha= n anything, which makes it still somewhat redundant (not that this invalida= tes it, as the gimste is not minimal).

mi'e la latro'a mu&#= 39;o

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