Received: from mail-ea0-f192.google.com ([209.85.215.192]:60743) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UwzHR-00011i-Ej for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2013 11:38:33 -0700 Received: by mail-ea0-f192.google.com with SMTP id k10sf1203440eaj.29 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2013 11:38:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2FzKtsPzAITGM4W/Iko7dQD3rCaNUUYlVqsX911vwmo=; b=k8Eh+oQha6TNa8cx0CytOPi94LxA/oKCSFK6oIUNlM24tN0Ma9JB5DSzIDOP/lRKsy ysHS5aUTCsobAxNqeVLsDtomTlKXJBeaHc59AHi+fczaJAq1gR/+kB+42TbqOy6GC4Jt L32azvcMRoHd431deqE508mH+mCp2FS8c3nNIS4RcDcAeLReEvzOawaseFfiqRauTZdL t0UmY0uLCcX7fyJZnuv4ighEbvqenBH7u8UBRe0ruTzsf5CgRJW75jWL23Du8MEQtURW +sMohgOtwoMShTftPvLvDSPxVKXMrqry5gutVIUAV8bJyPhXjq9PKm22eNc2ghNfmhS8 h0pA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2FzKtsPzAITGM4W/Iko7dQD3rCaNUUYlVqsX911vwmo=; b=lFAQiMqdEYBHLgSRz0p85CCP+i+yuQP0bymJocBDdit1w0L4tEqt654qRO36j04xfl 9WZYnDdoprN/uoQ9HUiZAYumjnEPqHbZc9CF/uZKkkfJmZZGJzjmlF7Oy6NHLr0f5tLP HEu8NdM+BdUJKtCWUKhKeDGn50QdBvSHS5UV9OTHE2OFf8zy9Li0Fw5ZJ+nMr4QNSQ8r nTZTDp11qLrJTZ0rEgJO2rHp4N+ylcHhfzK2qyiJKEa+rfcIcxE0lWbf4FUzmaBBgYar 3pbgDvPeehq0eau/ib+FcnV9WzwsoHD/fYlj8PZwltY5d17ptk4m3cMyn8kXXAifrbLH aunQ== X-Received: by 10.180.187.12 with SMTP id fo12mr166351wic.17.1373481493600; Wed, 10 Jul 2013 11:38:13 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.13.233 with SMTP id k9ls1624388wic.53.gmail; Wed, 10 Jul 2013 11:38:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.187.229 with SMTP id fv5mr8170670wic.6.1373481492948; Wed, 10 Jul 2013 11:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x233.google.com (mail-ve0-x233.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c01::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bj5si939472wib.1.2013.07.10.11.38.12 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Jul 2013 11:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c01::233; Received: by mail-ve0-f179.google.com with SMTP id d10so6302732vea.24 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2013 11:38:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.221.24.75 with SMTP id rd11mr19858677vcb.81.1373481491707; Wed, 10 Jul 2013 11:38:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.59.7.65 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Jul 2013 11:37:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20130709161436.GF4227@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <51DD4AB3.5090108@lojban.org> From: Luke Bergen Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 14:37:51 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Someone please explain {xrani} to me. To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11335dfe6b75ca04e12c946d X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11335dfe6b75ca04e12c946d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmm, from the definition sound, it almost sounds like x3 is the kind of injury (e.g. physical, emotional, economic, etc...) So {lo nu farlu cu xrani lo tixnu lo ka kanro .e lo ka cinmo to pe'iru'e ty cniki'a xu toi lo za'i ciblu cidni} While maybe my significant other breaking up with me might be: {lo nu kampe'o fanmo cu xrani mi lo ka cinmo lo za'i spofu fa lo cnise'i } =3D> The end of my S.O. [relationship] injured me emotionally such that I a= m in a broken hearted state. On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Ian Johnson wrote= : > On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 7:51 AM, Robert LeChevalier wr= ote: > >> Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis wrote: >> >>> pe'i >>> lu lo nu farlu cu xrani lo tixnu lo ka makau cidni lo tuple kei lo ka l= o >>> ciblu be ce'u cu flecu fi lo bartu li'u mu'a >>> >>> mu'o >>> mi'e .asiz. >>> >>> >>> On 9 July 2013 13:31, Frank >> >> wrote: >>> >>> On Tuesday, July 9, 2013, Robin Lee Powell wrote: >>> >>> >>> The x3 and x4 don't make any sense to me. >>> >>> xrani =3D x1 (event) injures/harms/damages victim x2 in propert= y >>> x3 (ka) resulting in injury x4 (state). >>> >>> Can someone please tell me how to comment on my daughter's >>> scraped >>> knee in a way that fills all 4 places? Because I think the x3 >>> is BS >>> and should be dropped. >>> >>> >>> Just so We're on the same page, so to speak, why do You think it's >>> "BS"? >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>> send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com >>> >>> >. >>> >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com >>> >. >>> >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<= https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out> >>> . >>> >> >> >> asiz's response seems OK to me. Perhaps the x3 might refer more >> specifically to the skin integrity, which is clearly a property. >> >> It isn't necessarily the case that filling in x3 obviates the need for x= 4 >> and vice versa, as was suggested. Rather, I think it is that we don't h= ave >> all that rich a form of expressing this in English such that we know how= to >> express both places at once, and we have rather less terminology options >> for x3. >> >> Usually in (non-medical) English we refer to the x4, which is the >> resulting injury (the scrape in her knee), which is why Robin doesn't se= e >> the need for x3. >> >> But if the resulting state is death, the x3 might be the specific cause >> of death. Concussion, stroke, pain, are all possible x4 injuries that >> could result from different x3 property injuries. >> >> In medical contexts, it becomes more clear how to use both. x4 would be >> used to express the symptoms, whereas x3 would express the damage causin= g >> the symptoms. "head trauma", an x3, might result in a variety of x4 sta= tes >> (concussion, coma, paralysis). >> >> lojbab >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com >> . >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >> . >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >> . >> >> >> This seems like implicit {ja'e} more than anything, which makes it still > somewhat redundant (not that this invalidates it, as the gimste is not > minimal). > > mi'e la latro'a mu'o > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --001a11335dfe6b75ca04e12c946d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hmm, from the definition sound, it almost sounds like x3 i= s the kind of injury (e.g. physical, emotional, economic, etc...)

<= /div>
So {lo nu farlu cu xrani lo tixnu lo ka kanro .e lo ka cinm= o to pe'iru'e ty cniki'a xu toi=A0lo za'i ciblu cidni}

=
While maybe my significant other breaking up with me might be:
{lo = nu kampe'o fanmo cu xrani mi lo ka cinmo lo za'i spofu fa lo cnise&= #39;i } =3D> The end of my S.O. [relationship] injured me emotionally su= ch that I am in a broken hearted state.


On Wed,= Jul 10, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
=
On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 7= :51 AM, Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis wrote:
pe'i
lu lo nu farlu cu xrani lo tixnu lo ka makau cidni lo tuple kei lo ka lo ciblu be ce'u cu flecu fi lo bartu li'u mu'a

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.


On 9 July 2013 13:31, Frank <frankdmartinez@gmail.com
<mailto:fr= ankdmartinez@gmail.com>> wrote:

=A0 =A0 On Tuesday, July 9, 2013, Robin Lee Powell wrote:


=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 The x3 and x4 don't make any sense to me.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 xrani =3D x1 (event) injures/harms/damages victim x2 in pro= perty
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 x3 (ka) resulting in injury x4 (state).

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Can someone please tell me how to comment on my daughter= 9;s scraped
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 knee in a way that fills all 4 places? =A0Because I think t= he x3 is BS
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 and should be dropped.


=A0 =A0 Just so We're on the same page, so to speak, why do You think i= t's "BS"?

=A0 =A0 --
=A0 =A0 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google<= br> =A0 =A0 Groups "lojban" group.
=A0 =A0 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, =A0 =A0 send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
=
=A0 =A0 <mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>.<= div>
=A0 =A0 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com
=A0 =A0 <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>.

=A0 =A0 Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
=A0 =A0 For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out= .


asiz's response seems OK to me. =A0Perhaps the x3 might refer more spec= ifically to the skin integrity, which is clearly a property.

It isn't necessarily the case that filling in x3 obviates the need for = x4 and vice versa, as was suggested. =A0Rather, I think it is that we don&#= 39;t have all that rich a form of expressing this in English such that we k= now how to express both places at once, and we have rather less terminology= options for x3.

Usually in (non-medical) English we refer to the x4, which is the resulting= injury (the scrape in her knee), which is why Robin doesn't see the ne= ed for x3.

But if the resulting state is death, the x3 might be the specific cause of = death. =A0Concussion, stroke, pain, are all possible x4 injuries that could= result from different x3 property injuries.

In medical contexts, it becomes more clear how to use both. x4 would be use= d to express the symptoms, whereas x3 would express the damage causing the = symptoms. =A0"head trauma", an x3, might result in a variety of x= 4 states (concussion, coma, paralysis).

lojbab


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This seems like implicit {ja'= ;e} more than anything, which makes it still somewhat redundant (not that t= his invalidates it, as the gimste is not minimal).

mi'e la latr= o'a mu'o

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=A0
=A0

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