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Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 19:02:11 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Someone please explain {xrani} to me.
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:51 AM, Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>wrote:

>
>  Perhaps the x3 might refer more specifically to the skin integrity, which
> is clearly a property.
>
[...]

> But if the resulting state is death, the x3 might be the specific cause of
> death.  Concussion, stroke, pain, are all possible x4 injuries that could
> result from different x3 property injuries.
>
> In medical contexts, it becomes more clear how to use both. x4 would be
> used to express the symptoms, whereas x3 would express the damage causing
> the symptoms.  "head trauma", an x3, might result in a variety of x4 states
> (concussion, coma, paralysis).
>

"Head trauma" and "skin integrity" don't seem to be both possible for x3.
 I think "skin integrity" is right and "head trauma" wrong.

I think we can read "xrani" as "x1 causes x2 to stop having desirable
property x3 and start having undesirable property x4".  So in Robin's
example, x3 could be the skin integrity and x4 the having a scraped knee.

The second reading, where x3 could be a head trauma, would be something
like "x1 causes x2 to have undesirable property x3, which in turn results
in having property x4", but I can't get that reading from the definition of
"xrani". x3 is the property that gets injured/damaged/destroyed, the
property that exists before the injury takes place, not the property
resulting from the injury.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:51 AM, Robert LeChevalier <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org" target=3D"_blank">lojbab@lojban=
.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>=A0Perhaps the x3 might refer more speci=
fically to the skin integrity, which is clearly a property.<br></blockquote=
><div>
[...]</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
But if the resulting state is death, the x3 might be the specific cause of =
death. =A0Concussion, stroke, pain, are all possible x4 injuries that could=
 result from different x3 property injuries.<br>
<br>
In medical contexts, it becomes more clear how to use both. x4 would be use=
d to express the symptoms, whereas x3 would express the damage causing the =
symptoms. =A0&quot;head trauma&quot;, an x3, might result in a variety of x=
4 states (concussion, coma, paralysis).<br>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div style>&quot;Head trauma&quot; and &quot;sk=
in integrity&quot; don&#39;t seem to be both possible for x3. =A0I think &q=
uot;skin integrity&quot; is right and &quot;head trauma&quot; wrong.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>I think we can read &quot;xrani&quot; as &q=
uot;x1 causes x2 to stop having desirable property x3 and start having unde=
sirable property x4&quot;. =A0So in Robin&#39;s example, x3 could be the sk=
in integrity and x4 the having a scraped knee.=A0</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>The second reading, where x3 could be a hea=
d trauma, would be something like &quot;x1 causes x2 to have undesirable pr=
operty x3, which in turn results in having property x4&quot;, but I can&#39=
;t get that reading from the definition of &quot;xrani&quot;. x3 is the pro=
perty that gets injured/damaged/destroyed, the property that exists before =
the injury takes place, not the property resulting from the injury.=A0</div=
>
<div style><br></div><div style>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div style><b=
r></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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