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Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 09:32:46 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] How to read out loud a written ZOI quote containing a picture?
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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 Yes.  It's parallel to how things like the Lynx browser works. It supplies
the alt-text instead of the picture, since it is designed for non-graphical
use.
     --gejyspa


On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com> wrote:

>  Okay, thank you for your reply. =E2=99=AA
>
> Still, I'd like to know how you'd do if you were to read a Lojban text ou=
t
> loud for somebody else (whatever situation requiring reading a text out
> loud; phone call, reading for a blind person, etc.). You're reading out
> loud a text and suddenly you come across a zoi quote containing some symb=
ol
> or picture. What do you say?
>
> What about { [co'e li'o] fi zoi pixra.  .pixra  to'i ri pixra lo nanmu
> noi sanli lo rokci toi  [li'o] } (empty zoi quote + editorial unquote),
> or something in this fashion?
>
>
> mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o
> _________________
>
> Michael Turniansky a =C3=A9crit :
>
>   Okay, first of all, you set up a straw man.  zoi quotes specifically
> break the audio-visual isomorphism of the language.  That's what it and
> la'o are designed to do.  When you say "zoi gy house gy valsi zo valsi la
> gliban" You cannot pronounce that as written in lojban.  zoi means "I'm
> about to tell you/show you something that isn't lojbanic.  So don't worry
> if the sounds and print don't match.  In fact, I may not be able to read
> this sentence out loud/write this sentence down.  After all, not everythi=
ng
> is available in all modes of communication.  I can't transmit a smell in
> either sound or written words, I can only describe it...."
>
>                       --gejyspa
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 7:27 AM, Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  Hello everybody!
>>
>> I've been wondering something for a while about ZOI quotes. They exist
>> for enabling incorporating things that aren't Lojbanic text or utterance
>> into a Lojban sentence. For instance they ebable you inserting visual
>> things that aren't Lojban text, such as foreign language writting or
>> pictures (written medium), or non-Lojbanic utterances or sounds (spoken
>> speech).
>>
>> This is certainly quite useful, but it results in a break in the
>> audio-visual isomorphism of the langage. This isn't much of a problem wi=
th
>> foreign language quotes (provided that the reader knows the language use=
d),
>> phonetic transcriptions and other codings that have both a written and a
>> spoken form; however, pictures and non-linguistics sounds (for example) =
are
>> more problematic.
>>
>> My questions are the followings:
>> =E2=80=A2 How to read out loud a written ZOI quote containing a picture?
>> =E2=80=A2 How to write down a spoken ZOI quote containing non-linguistic=
 sounds?
>>
>> If there were a way to replace (in direct quotes/transcriptions) the
>> content of the ZOI quote with an alternative Lojbanic description (such =
as
>> a description of the picture within such a quote), this would solve this
>> problem, but I can't think of a clean way of doing so without altering t=
oo
>> much the sentence content (thus breaking direct quotation/transcription)=
.
>> For instance, {to'i} doesn't seem of much help here. :)
>>
>> Any idea or comment would be greatly appreciated. =E2=99=AA
>>
>> mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o
>>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0Yes. =C2=A0It&#39;s parallel to how things like the =
Lynx browser works. It supplies the alt-text instead of the picture, since =
it is designed for non-graphical use.<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa</di=
v><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Ilmen <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">

 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    <div><font face=3D"Tahoma">Okay, thank you for
        your reply. =E2=99=AA<br>
        <br>
        Still, I&#39;d like to know how you&#39;d do if you were to read a
        Lojban text out loud for somebody else (whatever situation
        requiring reading a text out loud; phone call, reading for a
        blind person, etc.). You&#39;re reading out loud a text and suddenl=
y
        you come across a zoi quote containing some symbol or picture.
        What do you say?<br>
        <br>
        What about <font color=3D"#115533">{ [co&#39;e li&#39;o] fi zoi pix=
ra.=C2=A0
          .pixra=C2=A0 to&#39;i ri pixra lo nanmu noi sanli lo rokci toi=C2=
=A0 [li&#39;o]
          }</font> (empty zoi quote + editorial unquote), or something
        in this fashion?<div class=3D"im"><br>
        <br>
        mi&#39;e la .ilmen. mu&#39;o<br></div>
        _________________<br>
        <br>
        Michael Turniansky a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:</font><br>
    </div><div><div class=3D"h5">
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 Okay, first of all, you set up a straw man. =
=C2=A0zoi
        quotes specifically break the audio-visual isomorphism of the
        language. =C2=A0That&#39;s what it and la&#39;o are designed to do.=
 =C2=A0When you
        say &quot;zoi gy house gy valsi zo valsi la gliban&quot; You cannot
        pronounce that as written in lojban. =C2=A0zoi means &quot;I&#39;m =
about to
        tell you/show you something that isn&#39;t lojbanic. =C2=A0So don&#=
39;t worry
        if the sounds and print don&#39;t match. =C2=A0In fact, I may not b=
e able
        to read this sentence out loud/write this sentence down. =C2=A0Afte=
r
        all, not everything is available in all modes of communication.
        =C2=A0I can&#39;t transmit a smell in either sound or written words=
, I
        can only describe it....&quot;
        <div><br>
          <div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 --gejyspa</div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
        <br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 7:27 AM, Ilmen
          <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"> <font face=3D"Tahoma=
">Hello
                everybody!<br>
                <br>
                I&#39;ve been wondering something for a while about ZOI
                quotes. They exist for enabling incorporating things
                that aren&#39;t Lojbanic text or utterance into a Lojban
                sentence. For instance they ebable you inserting visual
                things that aren&#39;t Lojban text, such as foreign languag=
e
                writting or pictures (written medium), or non-Lojbanic
                utterances or sounds (spoken speech).<br>
                <br>
                This is certainly quite useful, but it results in a
                break in the audio-visual isomorphism of the langage.
                This isn&#39;t much of a problem with foreign language
                quotes (provided that the reader knows the language
                used), phonetic transcriptions and other codings that
                have both a written and a spoken form; however, pictures
                and non-linguistics sounds (for example) are more
                problematic.<br>
                <br>
                My questions are the followings:<br>
                =E2=80=A2 How to read out loud a written ZOI quote containi=
ng a
                picture?<br>
                =E2=80=A2 How to write down a spoken ZOI quote containing
                non-linguistic sounds?<br>
                <br>
                If there were a way to replace (in direct
                quotes/transcriptions) the content of the ZOI quote with
                an alternative Lojbanic description (such as a
                description of the picture within such a quote), this
                would solve this problem, but I can&#39;t think of a clean
                way of doing so without altering too much the sentence
                content (thus breaking direct quotation/transcription).
                For instance, {to&#39;i} doesn&#39;t seem of much help here=
. :)<br>
                <br>
                Any idea or comment would be greatly appreciated. =E2=99=AA=
<br>
                <br>
                mi&#39;e la .ilmen. mu&#39;o</font><br>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">


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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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