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[37.1.170.165]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id a6sm14739699wib.10.2013.07.14.07.24.02 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 14 Jul 2013 07:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51E2B47E.2040304@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 16:23:58 +0200 From: Ilmen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:22.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/22.0 SeaMonkey/2.19 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] How to read out loud a written ZOI quote containing a picture? References: <51E28B2B.1010401@gmail.com> <51E29E35.9090200@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030003030405020205060403" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030003030405020205060403 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable je'e sai do'u You've answered all my questions then, thank you! To further parallel the alt. texts in HTML sources which replace the=20 images that can't be displayed, we could imagine that meticulous writers=20 could add a {noi} clause after such zoi quotes, providing succint=20 descriptions of the contained image. :) mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o ____________________ Michael Turniansky a =C3=A9crit : > Yes. It's parallel to how things like the Lynx browser works. It=20 > supplies the alt-text instead of the picture, since it is designed for=20 > non-graphical use. > --gejyspa > > > On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Ilmen > wrote: > > Okay, thank you for your reply. =E2=99=AA > > Still, I'd like to know how you'd do if you were to read a Lojban > text out loud for somebody else (whatever situation requiring > reading a text out loud; phone call, reading for a blind person, > etc.). You're reading out loud a text and suddenly you come across > a zoi quote containing some symbol or picture. What do you say? > > What about { [co'e li'o] fi zoi pixra. .pixra to'i ri pixra lo > nanmu noi sanli lo rokci toi [li'o] } (empty zoi quote + > editorial unquote), or something in this fashion? > > > mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o > _________________ > > Michael Turniansky a =C3=A9crit : >> Okay, first of all, you set up a straw man. zoi quotes >> specifically break the audio-visual isomorphism of the language. >> That's what it and la'o are designed to do. When you say "zoi >> gy house gy valsi zo valsi la gliban" You cannot pronounce that >> as written in lojban. zoi means "I'm about to tell you/show you >> something that isn't lojbanic. So don't worry if the sounds and >> print don't match. In fact, I may not be able to read this >> sentence out loud/write this sentence down. After all, not >> everything is available in all modes of communication. I can't >> transmit a smell in either sound or written words, I can only >> describe it...." >> >> --gejyspa >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 7:27 AM, Ilmen > > wrote: >> >> Hello everybody! >> >> I've been wondering something for a while about ZOI quotes. >> They exist for enabling incorporating things that aren't >> Lojbanic text or utterance into a Lojban sentence. For >> instance they ebable you inserting visual things that aren't >> Lojban text, such as foreign language writting or pictures >> (written medium), or non-Lojbanic utterances or sounds >> (spoken speech). >> >> This is certainly quite useful, but it results in a break in >> the audio-visual isomorphism of the langage. This isn't much >> of a problem with foreign language quotes (provided that the >> reader knows the language used), phonetic transcriptions and >> other codings that have both a written and a spoken form; >> however, pictures and non-linguistics sounds (for example) >> are more problematic. >> >> My questions are the followings: >> =E2=80=A2 How to read out loud a written ZOI quote containing a = picture? >> =E2=80=A2 How to write down a spoken ZOI quote containing >> non-linguistic sounds? >> >> If there were a way to replace (in direct >> quotes/transcriptions) the content of the ZOI quote with an >> alternative Lojbanic description (such as a description of >> the picture within such a quote), this would solve this >> problem, but I can't think of a clean way of doing so without >> altering too much the sentence content (thus breaking direct >> quotation/transcription). For instance, {to'i} doesn't seem >> of much help here. :) >> >> Any idea or comment would be greatly appreciated. =E2=99=AA >> >> mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o >> > > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 > Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=20 > an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --------------030003030405020205060403 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
je'e sai do'u

You've answered all my questions then, thank you!

To further parallel the alt. texts in HTML sources which replace the images that can't be displayed, we could imagine that meticulous writers could add a {noi} clause after such zoi quotes, providing succint descriptions of the contained image. :)

mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o
____________________

Michael Turniansky a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
=C2=A0Yes. =C2=A0It's parallel to how things like th= e Lynx browser works. It supplies the alt-text instead of the picture, since it is designed for non-graphical use.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa


On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Ilmen <ilm= en.pokebip@gmail.com> wrote:
Okay, thank you for your reply. = =E2=99=AA

Still, I'd like to know how you'd do if you were to read a Lojban text out loud for somebody else (whatever situation requiring reading a text out loud; phone call, reading for a blind person, etc.). You're reading out loud a text and suddenly you come across a zoi quote containing some symbol or picture. What do you say?

What about { [co'e li'o] fi zoi pixra.=C2=A0 .pixra=C2=A0 to'i ri pixra lo nanmu noi sa= nli lo rokci toi=C2=A0 [li'o] } (empty zoi quote + editorial unquote), or something in this fashion?


mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o
_________________

Michael Turniansky a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
=C2=A0 Okay, first of all, you set up = a straw man. =C2=A0zoi quotes specifically break the audio-visual isomorphism of the language. =C2=A0That'= s what it and la'o are designed to do. =C2=A0When you s= ay "zoi gy house gy valsi zo valsi la gliban" You cannot pronounce that as written in lojban. =C2=A0zoi means "I'm about to tell you/show you something that isn't lojbanic. =C2=A0So don't worry if the soun= ds and print don't match. =C2=A0In fact, I may not be ab= le to read this sentence out loud/write this sentence down. =C2=A0After all, not everything is available in all modes of communication. =C2=A0I can't transmit a smell in either sound or written words, I can only describe it...."

=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 --gejyspa


On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 7:27 AM, Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
Hello everybody!

I've been wondering something for a while about ZOI quotes. They exist for enabling incorporating things that aren't Lojbanic text or utterance into a Lojban sentence. For instance they ebable you inserting visual things that aren't Lojban text, such as foreign language writting or pictures (written medium), or non-Lojbanic utterances or sounds (spoken speech).

This is certainly quite useful, but it results in a break in the audio-visual isomorphism of the langage. This isn't much of a problem with foreign language quotes (provided that the reader knows the language used), phonetic transcriptions and other codings that have both a written and a spoken form; however, pictures and non-linguistics sounds (for example) are more problematic.

My questions are the followings:
=E2=80=A2 How to read out loud a written ZOI = quote containing a picture?
=E2=80=A2 How to write down a spoken ZOI quot= e containing non-linguistic sounds?

If there were a way to replace (in direct quotes/transcriptions) the content of the ZOI quote with an alternative Lojbanic description (such as a description of the picture within such a quote), this would solve this problem, but I can't think of a clean way of doing so without altering too much the sentence content (thus breaking direct quotation/transcription). For instance, {to'i} doesn't seem of much help here. :)

Any idea or comment would be greatly appreciated. =E2=99=AA

mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o

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