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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 18:38:52 -0600
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Subject: Re: [lojban] idea: selma'o fu'ivla
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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{la'oi.BAI.} is much shorter than {lo camvrbai}, and possibly easier to
remember, so I think it's unlikely your suggestion will be adopted.

On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Wuzzy <almikes@aol.com> wrote:

> Problem: To refer to a selma'o in Lojban.
>
> Solution: There are already some of these. But none of these does the
> most obvious thing: Creating new brivla to fill the x2 place of =E2=80=9C=
cmavo=E2=80=9D.
>
> My solution: Create a bunch of stage-3 fu'ivla which refer to a selma'o
> each.
>
> It works like this: Use =E2=80=9Ccmavo=E2=80=9D as gismu and append the l=
ower-case=E2=80=99d
> name of the selma'o you want to translate.
>
> Examples:
> =E2=80=9CBAI=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Ccmavrbai=E2=80=9D
> =E2=80=9CDOhU=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Ccmavrdo'u=E2=80=9D
> =E2=80=9CROI=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Ccmavnroi=E2=80=9D (rare case of =
=E2=80=9Cn=E2=80=9D hyphen here)
>
> The only purpose of a selma'o fu'ivla is to refer to a selma'o, nothing
> more. Thus, the definition of a selma'o fu'ivla is like =E2=80=9Cx1 is th=
e
> selma'o BAI.=E2=80=9D.
>
> Remaining problems:
> fu'ivla do not allow =E2=80=9Cy=E2=80=9D nor do they allow a vowel right =
after the
> gismu part.
> Thus, there has to be some kind of hacking around the names of the
> selma'o =E2=80=9CA=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CBY=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9CY=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CUI=E2=80=9D. My current attempt is to use =
=E2=80=9Clr=E2=80=9D
> as seperator if the selma'o name does not contain a =E2=80=9CY=E2=80=9D. =
If it does
> contain a =E2=80=9CY=E2=80=9D, I append a valsi which best describes the =
selma'o.
>
> Here=E2=80=99s the list of irregegular selma'o fu'ivla produced with abov=
e
> rules:
> A       cmavlra
> BY      cmavrlerfu      from {lerfu}
> I       cmavlri
> UI      cmavlrui
> Y       cmavrdepsna     from {depsna}
>
> Using =E2=80=9Clr=E2=80=9D as seperator is kind of a hack and personally =
do not like
> it very much since there is an =E2=80=9Cl=E2=80=9D hyphen
> used although it is not neccessary here. However, the =E2=80=9Cl=E2=80=9D=
 makes clear
> that the following =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D is not part of the derived selma'o=
 name.
> =E2=80=9Ccmavnra=E2=80=9D, for example, could be misunderstood as =E2=80=
=9CRA=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9CA=E2=80=9D.
>
> However, the vast majority (>110 out of 120) of the selma'o are
> completely regular. Most of them have the form =E2=80=9Ccmavr=E2=80=9D + =
selma'o name.
>
> Example sentence:
> =E2=80=9Czo dau cmavo lo cmavrpa=E2=80=9D translates to =E2=80=9C=E2=80=
=98dau=E2=80=99 is in the selma'o =E2=80=98PA=E2=80=99.=E2=80=9D.
>
> I even wrote a proposal on:
> <http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/selma%27o_fu%27ivla>
> It is a bit more complete than this e-mail. It also contains some
> algorithms (spaghetti code!) to create a list.
> But beware, it=E2=80=99s still the very first draft.
>
> Comments? Ideas?
> --
> Wuzzy
> XMPP: Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de
>
> --
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> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>
>


--=20
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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{la&#39;oi.BAI.} is much shorter than {lo camvrbai}, and possibly easier to=
 remember, so I think it&#39;s unlikely your suggestion will be adopted.<br=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Wuzzy <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:almikes@aol.com" target=3D"_blank">almi=
kes@aol.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Problem: To refer to a selma&#39;o in Lojban=
.<br>
<br>
Solution: There are already some of these. But none of these does the<br>
most obvious thing: Creating new brivla to fill the x2 place of =E2=80=9Ccm=
avo=E2=80=9D.<br>
<br>
My solution: Create a bunch of stage-3 fu&#39;ivla which refer to a selma&#=
39;o<br>
each.<br>
<br>
It works like this: Use =E2=80=9Ccmavo=E2=80=9D as gismu and append the low=
er-case=E2=80=99d<br>
name of the selma&#39;o you want to translate.<br>
<br>
Examples:<br>
=E2=80=9CBAI=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Ccmavrbai=E2=80=9D<br>
=E2=80=9CDOhU=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Ccmavrdo&#39;u=E2=80=9D<br>
=E2=80=9CROI=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Ccmavnroi=E2=80=9D (rare case of =
=E2=80=9Cn=E2=80=9D hyphen here)<br>
<br>
The only purpose of a selma&#39;o fu&#39;ivla is to refer to a selma&#39;o,=
 nothing<br>
more. Thus, the definition of a selma&#39;o fu&#39;ivla is like =E2=80=9Cx1=
 is the<br>
selma&#39;o BAI.=E2=80=9D.<br>
<br>
Remaining problems:<br>
fu&#39;ivla do not allow =E2=80=9Cy=E2=80=9D nor do they allow a vowel righ=
t after the<br>
gismu part.<br>
Thus, there has to be some kind of hacking around the names of the<br>
selma&#39;o =E2=80=9CA=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CBY=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=9D,=
 =E2=80=9CY=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CUI=E2=80=9D. My current attempt is to use=
 =E2=80=9Clr=E2=80=9D<br>
as seperator if the selma&#39;o name does not contain a =E2=80=9CY=E2=80=9D=
. If it does<br>
contain a =E2=80=9CY=E2=80=9D, I append a valsi which best describes the se=
lma&#39;o.<br>
<br>
Here=E2=80=99s the list of irregegular selma&#39;o fu&#39;ivla produced wit=
h above<br>
rules:<br>
A =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 cmavlra<br>
BY =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cmavrlerfu =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0from {lerfu}<br>
I =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 cmavlri<br>
UI =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cmavlrui<br>
Y =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 cmavrdepsna =C2=A0 =C2=A0 from {depsna}<br>
<br>
Using =E2=80=9Clr=E2=80=9D as seperator is kind of a hack and personally do=
 not like<br>
it very much since there is an =E2=80=9Cl=E2=80=9D hyphen<br>
used although it is not neccessary here. However, the =E2=80=9Cl=E2=80=9D m=
akes clear<br>
that the following =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D is not part of the derived selma&#39=
;o name.<br>
=E2=80=9Ccmavnra=E2=80=9D, for example, could be misunderstood as =E2=80=9C=
RA=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9CA=E2=80=9D.<br>
<br>
However, the vast majority (&gt;110 out of 120) of the selma&#39;o are<br>
completely regular. Most of them have the form =E2=80=9Ccmavr=E2=80=9D + se=
lma&#39;o name.<br>
<br>
Example sentence:<br>
=E2=80=9Czo dau cmavo lo cmavrpa=E2=80=9D translates to =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98d=
au=E2=80=99 is in the selma&#39;o =E2=80=98PA=E2=80=99.=E2=80=9D.<br>
<br>
I even wrote a proposal on:<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/selma%27o_fu%27ivla" target=
=3D"_blank">http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/selma%27o_fu%27ivla</a>&gt;<br>
It is a bit more complete than this e-mail. It also contains some<br>
algorithms (spaghetti code!) to create a list.<br>
But beware, it=E2=80=99s still the very first draft.<br>
<br>
Comments? Ideas?<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">--<br>
Wuzzy<br>
XMPP: <a href=3D"mailto:Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de">Wuzzy2@jabber.ccc.de</a><br>
<br>
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ubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
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com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
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For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o =
mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi=
.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father=
. :D )<br>

<p></p>

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