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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 20:27:49 -0600
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Subject: Re: [lojban] idea: selma'o fu'ivla
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 7:37 PM, Wuzzy <almikes@aol.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 18:38:52 -0600
> Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> > {la'oi.BAI.} is much shorter than {lo camvrbai}
> I disagree with the word =93much=94 in that sentence.
>

I disagree with you taking two paragraphs worth of issue on a single word.


> =93la'oi.BAI.=94 is 3 syllables and 10 characters long.
> =93locmavrbai=94 is 4 syllables and also 10 characters long. (I removed t=
he
> space because you didn=92t use spaces in =93la'oi.BAI.=94 either. It=92s
> grammatical.)
>

.i lo mi ciska tadji na vasru lonu vimcu lo calyle'u lo jbini be lo gadri
ce bridi


> A difference of one syllable is not =93much=94 for me.
>

> I intentionally picked type-3 fu'ivla because that was the safest
> choice. I don=92t want to waste precious type-4 fu'ivla space with 120
> fu'ivla and I doubt that selma'o are concepts used that often that
> every single syllable matters so it is an acceptable price for me to
> pay.
>
> You seem to have a different opinion on that. So be it, I am okay with
> that.
>

I never commented on the type of word. While it is true that I dislike
type-3 fu'ivla for aesthetic reasons, that's an opinion and irrelevant to
the discussion. I'm merely stating what I believe to be reasons the
community would have.


> > possibly easier to remember
> That may be indeed true. But it is only slightly easier, I think. I
> tried hard to keep the changes at minimum.
>
> > it's unlikely your suggestion will be adopted.
> I doubt that. At least I would certainly adopt it, therefore you are
> wrong here.
>

By the community. It's your idea. You don't count. I'm surprised you needed
that clause to be explicitly stated.


> Also, =93la'oi=94 is an experimental cmavo.


, which is about as useful with single word names as {zo'oi.} is for its
purpose, and is widely used in the community.

Unlike many "experimental" valsi, like {.o'ai}, which are pure synonyms of
existing words


> I avoid experimental cmavo,
> especially if they are replacable. And in this case it is replacable.
> The selma'o fu'ivla are in no way experimental, they are just new
> valsi and really don't change anything. Really nothing spectacular. So
> =93la'oi=94 can't replace the selma'o fu'ivla. And I=92d be very glad to =
see
> the selma'o fu'ivla on jvovlaste one day so people can start to learn
> and possibly use them. Just the 5 =93irregular=94 words need to be
> re-checked and I want to hear more community input on that issue.
> and then the selma'o fu'ivla should be pretty ready for submission. As
> soon as the selma'o fu'ivla are on jbovlaste, they will be adopted and
> I am pretty sure. The reason for that is tha probably every newbie will
> probably have searched the dictionary for the translation of a selma'o
> like =93BAI=94. With selma'o fu'ivla these people will find what they wer=
e
> looking for and they would of course adopt it because why not?
>

I don't know why you've typed so much on the non-existent issue of {la'oi.}
"replacing" your idea, because what your goal is is for your idea to
replace the one already in existence- {la'oi.} That would have been a
sensible argument if you were talking about {la'oi.} and {la'o}, but your
idea can't be replaced when it's not even in use.


> Which does not imply that other possibilities to express selma'o names
> in Lojban are invalidated. The selma'o fu'ivla can peacefully co-exist
> with all the other ways to refer to a selma'o. Nobody is forced to
> choose one way and to stick with it forever. It is nice to be able to
> express the same concept in different ways.
>
> I am, however, also pretty sure that you wouldn=92t adopt selma'o
> fu'ivla. ;-)
>

No, but my personal reason is because of how difficult "cmavrbai" is to say
in comparison to the method currently used.

--=20
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 7:37 PM, Wuzzy <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:almikes@aol.com" target=3D"_blank">a=
lmikes@aol.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 18:38:52 -0600<br>
Jonathan Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com">eyeonus@gmail.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; {la&#39;oi.BAI.} is much shorter than {lo camvrbai}<br>
</div>I disagree with the word =93much=94 in that sentence.<br></blockquote=
><div><br>I disagree with you taking two paragraphs worth of issue on a sin=
gle word.<br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


=93la&#39;oi.BAI.=94 is 3 syllables and 10 characters long.<br>
=93locmavrbai=94 is 4 syllables and also 10 characters long. (I removed the=
<br>
space because you didn=92t use spaces in =93la&#39;oi.BAI.=94 either. It=92=
s<br>
grammatical.)<br></blockquote><div><br>.i lo mi ciska tadji na vasru lonu v=
imcu lo calyle&#39;u lo jbini be lo gadri ce bridi<br>=A0</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex">


A difference of one syllable is not =93much=94 for me.<br></blockquote><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<br>
I intentionally picked type-3 fu&#39;ivla because that was the safest<br>
choice. I don=92t want to waste precious type-4 fu&#39;ivla space with 120<=
br>
fu&#39;ivla and I doubt that selma&#39;o are concepts used that often that<=
br>
every single syllable matters so it is an acceptable price for me to<br>
pay.<br>
<br>
You seem to have a different opinion on that. So be it, I am okay with<br>
that.<br></blockquote><div><br>I never commented on the type of word. While=
 it is true that I dislike type-3 fu&#39;ivla for aesthetic reasons, that&#=
39;s an opinion and irrelevant to the discussion. I&#39;m merely stating wh=
at I believe to be reasons the community would have.<br>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

&gt; possibly easier to remember<br>
That may be indeed true. But it is only slightly easier, I think. I<br>
tried hard to keep the changes at minimum.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; it&#39;s unlikely your suggestion will be adopted.<br>
</div>I doubt that. At least I would certainly adopt it, therefore you are<=
br>
wrong here.<br></blockquote><div><br>By the community. It&#39;s your idea. =
You don&#39;t count. I&#39;m surprised you needed that clause to be explici=
tly stated.<br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


Also, =93la&#39;oi=94 is an experimental cmavo. </blockquote><div><br>, whi=
ch is about as useful with single word names as {zo&#39;oi.} is for its pur=
pose, and is widely used in the community.<br><br>Unlike many &quot;experim=
ental&quot; valsi, like {.o&#39;ai}, which are pure synonyms of existing wo=
rds<br>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I avoid experimental cmavo,<br>
especially if they are replacable. And in this case it is replacable.<br>
The selma&#39;o fu&#39;ivla are in no way experimental, they are just new<b=
r>
valsi and really don&#39;t change anything. Really nothing spectacular. So<=
br>
=93la&#39;oi=94 can&#39;t replace the selma&#39;o fu&#39;ivla. And I=92d be=
 very glad to see<br>
the selma&#39;o fu&#39;ivla on jvovlaste one day so people can start to lea=
rn<br>
and possibly use them. Just the 5 =93irregular=94 words need to be<br>
re-checked and I want to hear more community input on that issue.<br>
and then the selma&#39;o fu&#39;ivla should be pretty ready for submission.=
 As<br>
soon as the selma&#39;o fu&#39;ivla are on jbovlaste, they will be adopted =
and<br>
I am pretty sure. The reason for that is tha probably every newbie will<br>
probably have searched the dictionary for the translation of a selma&#39;o<=
br>
like =93BAI=94. With selma&#39;o fu&#39;ivla these people will find what th=
ey were<br>
looking for and they would of course adopt it because why not?<br></blockqu=
ote><div><br>I don&#39;t know why you&#39;ve typed so much on the non-exist=
ent issue of {la&#39;oi.} &quot;replacing&quot; your idea, because what you=
r goal is is for your idea to replace the one already in existence- {la&#39=
;oi.} That would have been a sensible argument if you were talking about {l=
a&#39;oi.} and {la&#39;o}, but your idea can&#39;t be replaced when it&#39;=
s not even in use.<br>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Which does not imply that other possibilities to express selma&#39;o names<=
br>
in Lojban are invalidated. The selma&#39;o fu&#39;ivla can peacefully co-ex=
ist<br>
with all the other ways to refer to a selma&#39;o. Nobody is forced to<br>
choose one way and to stick with it forever. It is nice to be able to<br>
express the same concept in different ways.<br>
<br>
I am, however, also pretty sure that you wouldn=92t adopt selma&#39;o<br>
fu&#39;ivla. ;-)<br></blockquote></div><br>No, but my personal reason is be=
cause of how difficult &quot;cmavrbai&quot; is to say in comparison to the =
method currently used.<br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aiony=
s.<br>
<br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&=
#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br>

<p></p>

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