Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::235 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c04::235;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <20130725035341.2b120f2c@aol.com>
References: <20130725035341.2b120f2c@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 20:43:31 -0600
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj0wBfAoJ5iozaMOdFKKDcvqhYUAo+PA0GC-=wdwsMNw7A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Expressing Lojban concepts in Lojban
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01182deedf175204e24cfd15
X-Spam_score: 0.1
X-Spam_score_int: 1
X-Spam_bar: /
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has
 identified this incoming email as possible spam.  The original message
 has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 the administrator of that system for details.
 
 Content preview:  On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 7:53 PM, Wuzzy <almikes@aol.com> wrote:
    > Hi, it’s Wuzzy again. In my Lojban studies I encountered there are a lot
    > of Lojban concepts not expressed by any brivla. Especially the CLL > introduces
    a lot of concepts which are specifict to Lojban only, yet > Lojban has no
    brivla for them yet. The English words that lack a Lojban > brivla are, in
    no particular order: > > * “letteral”/“letter” (“letteral” here means “word
    that represents a > letter”, for Lojban that is “abu”, “by”, etc. For the
    sake of > simplicity, this definition does not exclude compound words like
    “abu” > = “a bu”. And “letter” is the usual English meaning . Now the annoying
    > thing is, it seems to me that lojbanists seem to currently use “lerfu”
   > to mean “letter” and “letteral” exchangingly. This needs to change > quickly.),
    > [...] 
 
 Content analysis details:   (0.1 points, 5.0 required)
 
  pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
  0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM          Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider
                             (eyeonus[at]gmail.com)
  0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED   No valid author signature, adsp_override is
                             CUSTOM_MED
 -0.0 SPF_PASS               SPF: sender matches SPF record
  0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED          ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked.
                             See
                             http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block
                              for more information.
                             [URIs: lojban.org]
  0.0 HTML_MESSAGE           BODY: HTML included in message
  0.1 DKIM_SIGNED            Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid
  0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID         DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid

--089e01182deedf175204e24cfd15
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 7:53 PM, Wuzzy <almikes@aol.com> wrote:

> Hi, it=92s Wuzzy again. In my Lojban studies I encountered there are a lo=
t
> of Lojban concepts not expressed by any brivla. Especially the CLL
> introduces a lot of concepts which are specifict to Lojban only, yet
> Lojban has no brivla for them yet. The English words that lack a Lojban
> brivla are, in no particular order:
>
>  * =93letteral=94/=93letter=94 (=93letteral=94 here means =93word that re=
presents a
> letter=94, for Lojban that is =93abu=94, =93by=94, etc. For the sake of
> simplicity, this definition does not exclude compound words like =93abu=
=94
> =3D =93a bu=94. And =93letter=94 is the usual English meaning . Now the a=
nnoying
> thing is, it seems to me that lojbanists seem to currently use =93lerfu=
=94
> to mean =93letter=94 and =93letteral=94 exchangingly. This needs to chang=
e
> quickly.),
>

A letter is a "letteral", although the reverse is not always true.
"letteral" is the English coined word the designers made up to include
things which are not letters but work like one: {'}, {,}, and {.}. {lerfu}
doesn't mean "letter" or "letteral" interchangably, it always means
"letteral". Just like "truck" is "vehicle", but "vehicle" isn't always
"truck". (car, boat, plane, etc.)


>  * =93diphtong=94,
>  * =93vowel pair=94 (the lojban vowel pairs of the form =93V'V=94 like =
=93a'a=94,
> =93a'e=94, and so on.),
>  * =93vowel=94 (in the lojbanic sense, can be either spoken or written)
> (=93vowel=94 in the sense of =93sound=94 is =93karsna=94),
>

karsnale'u


>  * =93consonant=94 (in the lojbanic sense, can be either spoken or writte=
n)
> (=93consonant=94 in the sense of =93sound=94 is =93zunsna=94),
>

zunsnale'u


>  * =93consonant cluster=94,
>  * =93consonant pair=94,
>  * =93consonant triple=94,
>  * =93initial consonant pair=94 (CLL, 3.7),
>  * =93buffer=94 (CLL, 3.8),
>  * =93stress=94 (CLL, 3.9),
>

loka basna


>  * =93hyphen=94 (extra letter to build words [Lojban-specific]),
>  * =93lojbanic letter=94 (letter that is part of Lojban=92s alphabet),
>

jbole'u


>  * =93stage <n> fu'ivla=94 where =93<n>=94 is one of: =931=94, =932=94, =
=933=94, =934=94,
>  * =93delimeter=94 (in the sense of =93valsi that delimetes a =91zoi=92
> quoted string=94),
>  * =935-letter rafsi=94,
>

rafsi be fi mu lerfu


>  * =934-letter rafsi=94,
>

rafsi be fi vo lerfu


>  * =93long rafsi=94 =3D a 5-letter rafsi or a 4-letter rafsi,
>  * =933-letter rafsi=94 or =93short rafsi=94,
>

rafsi be fi ci lerfu
rafsi be fi lo tordu


>  * =93unreduced lujvo=94 a lujvo that is made from at least one long rafs=
i,
>  * =93fully reduced lujvo=94: a lujvo that is made from short rafsi only,
>  * =93asymmetrical lujvo=94,
>

to'e lanxe lujvo


>  * =93utterance=94 in the broad sense of =93thing that a KOhA2 cmavo refe=
rs
> to=94,
>  * =93abstractor=94 and
>

sucygau


>  * =93implicit-abstraction lujvo=94.
>
> I am asking the mailing list for ideas on how to translate above
> concepts into Lojban. Yes, it=92s a long list but you don=92t have to
> translate everything at once. ;-) Even translation of one concept would
> help. :-) It would be best to coin a new lujvo for each concept.
>
> To show that it is possible to express Lojban=92s concepts in Lojban,
> here is a brivla I invented quite a time ago:
> =93to lojbanize (a name)=94 =3D =93jbocmefanva=94 =3D
> =93f1=3Dc3 translates non-Lojban name c1=3Df2 (text) from language f4 to
> (lojbanic) cmevla / lojbanized name f5=3Dl1 (text).=94
> <http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/jbocmefanva>
>
> -- Wuzzy
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>
>


--=20
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


--089e01182deedf175204e24cfd15
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 7:53 PM, Wuzzy <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:almikes@aol.com" target=3D"_blank">a=
lmikes@aol.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi, it=92s Wuzzy again. In my Lojban studies I encountered there are a lot<=
br>
of Lojban concepts not expressed by any brivla. Especially the CLL<br>
introduces a lot of concepts which are specifict to Lojban only, yet<br>
Lojban has no brivla for them yet. The English words that lack a Lojban<br>
brivla are, in no particular order:<br>
<br>
=A0* =93letteral=94/=93letter=94 (=93letteral=94 here means =93word that re=
presents a<br>
letter=94, for Lojban that is =93abu=94, =93by=94, etc. For the sake of<br>
simplicity, this definition does not exclude compound words like =93abu=94<=
br>
=3D =93a bu=94. And =93letter=94 is the usual English meaning . Now the ann=
oying<br>
thing is, it seems to me that lojbanists seem to currently use =93lerfu=94<=
br>
to mean =93letter=94 and =93letteral=94 exchangingly. This needs to change<=
br>
quickly.),<br></blockquote><div><br>A letter is a &quot;letteral&quot;, alt=
hough the reverse is not always true. &quot;letteral&quot; is the English c=
oined word the designers made up to include things which are not letters bu=
t work like one: {&#39;}, {,}, and {.}. {lerfu} doesn&#39;t mean &quot;lett=
er&quot; or &quot;letteral&quot; interchangably, it always means &quot;lett=
eral&quot;. Just like &quot;truck&quot; is &quot;vehicle&quot;, but &quot;v=
ehicle&quot; isn&#39;t always &quot;truck&quot;. (car, boat, plane, etc.)<b=
r>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=A0* =93diphtong=94,<br>
=A0* =93vowel pair=94 (the lojban vowel pairs of the form =93V&#39;V=94 lik=
e =93a&#39;a=94,<br>
=93a&#39;e=94, and so on.),<br>
=A0* =93vowel=94 (in the lojbanic sense, can be either spoken or written)<b=
r>
(=93vowel=94 in the sense of =93sound=94 is =93karsna=94),<br></blockquote>=
<div><br>karsnale&#39;u<br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=A0* =93consonant=94 (in the lojbanic sense, can be either spoken or writte=
n)<br>
(=93consonant=94 in the sense of =93sound=94 is =93zunsna=94),<br></blockqu=
ote><div><br>zunsnale&#39;u<br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=A0* =93consonant cluster=94,<br>
=A0* =93consonant pair=94,<br>
=A0* =93consonant triple=94,<br>
=A0* =93initial consonant pair=94 (CLL, 3.7),<br>
=A0* =93buffer=94 (CLL, 3.8),<br>
=A0* =93stress=94 (CLL, 3.9),<br></blockquote><div><br>loka basna<br>=A0</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=A0* =93hyphen=94 (extra letter to build words [Lojban-specific]),<br>
=A0* =93lojbanic letter=94 (letter that is part of Lojban=92s alphabet),<br=
></blockquote><div><br>jbole&#39;u<br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">
=A0* =93stage &lt;n&gt; fu&#39;ivla=94 where =93&lt;n&gt;=94 is one of: =93=
1=94, =932=94, =933=94, =934=94,<br>
=A0* =93delimeter=94 (in the sense of =93valsi that delimetes a =91zoi=92<b=
r>
quoted string=94),<br>
=A0* =935-letter rafsi=94,<br></blockquote><div><br>rafsi be fi mu lerfu<br=
>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=A0* =934-letter rafsi=94,<br></blockquote><div><br>rafsi be fi vo lerfu<br=
>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=A0* =93long rafsi=94 =3D a 5-letter rafsi or a 4-letter rafsi,<br>
=A0* =933-letter rafsi=94 or =93short rafsi=94,<br></blockquote><div><br>ra=
fsi be fi ci lerfu<br>rafsi be fi lo tordu<br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex">

=A0* =93unreduced lujvo=94 a lujvo that is made from at least one long rafs=
i,<br>
=A0* =93fully reduced lujvo=94: a lujvo that is made from short rafsi only,=
<br>
=A0* =93asymmetrical lujvo=94,<br></blockquote><div><br>to&#39;e lanxe lujv=
o<br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=A0* =93utterance=94 in the broad sense of =93thing that a KOhA2 cmavo refe=
rs<br>
to=94,<br>
=A0* =93abstractor=94 and<br></blockquote><div><br>sucygau<br>=A0</div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=A0* =93implicit-abstraction lujvo=94.<br>
<br>
I am asking the mailing list for ideas on how to translate above<br>
concepts into Lojban. Yes, it=92s a long list but you don=92t have to<br>
translate everything at once. ;-) Even translation of one concept would<br>
help. :-) It would be best to coin a new lujvo for each concept.<br>
<br>
To show that it is possible to express Lojban=92s concepts in Lojban,<br>
here is a brivla I invented quite a time ago:<br>
=93to lojbanize (a name)=94 =3D =93jbocmefanva=94 =3D<br>
=93f1=3Dc3 translates non-Lojban name c1=3Df2 (text) from language f4 to<br=
>
(lojbanic) cmevla / lojbanized name f5=3Dl1 (text).=94<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/jbocmefanva" target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/jbocmefanva</a>&gt;<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
-- Wuzzy<br>
<br>
--<br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+uns=
ubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o =
mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi=
.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father=
. :D )<br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

--089e01182deedf175204e24cfd15--