Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22a;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <20130725021725.3ce55578@aol.com>
References: <20130725021725.3ce55578@aol.com>
From: Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 23:45:37 -0400
Message-ID: <CAOQ8VDV4oA-zpXvE=tttKSwcipptWER8ancMOd4Rn6DGNfms_A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] idea: selma'o fu'ivla
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2e2242bcca104e24ddde6
X-Spam_score: -0.1
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--001a11c2e2242bcca104e24ddde6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 24 July 2013 20:17, Wuzzy <almikes@aol.com> wrote:

> Problem: To refer to a selma'o in Lojban.
>
> Solution: There are already some of these. But none of these does the
> most obvious thing: Creating new brivla to fill the x2 place of =E2=80=9C=
cmavo=E2=80=9D.
>
>
Well, the experimental solution that is used almost throughout the entire
community is not one involving {la'oi}, but rather {ma'oi}, which is at
least not a member of an experimental selma'o. (ma'oi is in ZO, whereas
la'oi is in ZOhOI.)


> My solution: Create a bunch of stage-3 fu'ivla which refer to a selma'o
> each.
>
>
I like this idea.


> It works like this: Use =E2=80=9Ccmavo=E2=80=9D as gismu and append the l=
ower-case=E2=80=99d
> name of the selma'o you want to translate.
>
> Examples:
> =E2=80=9CBAI=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Ccmavrbai=E2=80=9D
> =E2=80=9CDOhU=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Ccmavrdo'u=E2=80=9D
> =E2=80=9CROI=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Ccmavnroi=E2=80=9D (rare case of =
=E2=80=9Cn=E2=80=9D hyphen here)
>
> The only purpose of a selma'o fu'ivla is to refer to a selma'o, nothing
> more. Thus, the definition of a selma'o fu'ivla is like =E2=80=9Cx1 is th=
e
> selma'o BAI.=E2=80=9D.
>

What's important when making up definitions is not what they are in
English, but rather what they are in *Lojban*. How would you define these
fu'ivla in *Lojban*? (Also, the more correct term in this case is
{zi'evla}. It doesn't make sense to call {cmavr<whatever>}, a fu'ivla as it
isn't a loanword by any stretch.)

I'd probably define these in Lojban with {x1 se cmavo zo bai .e zo ...} and
list all the elements + {fo lo lojbo}. The concise definition would be be
{x1 se cmavo zo bai ra'u fo lo lojbo}.


>
> Remaining problems:
> fu'ivla do not allow =E2=80=9Cy=E2=80=9D nor do they allow a vowel right =
after the
> gismu part.
> Thus, there has to be some kind of hacking around the names of the
> selma'o =E2=80=9CA=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CBY=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9CY=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CUI=E2=80=9D. My current attempt is to use =
=E2=80=9Clr=E2=80=9D
> as seperator if the selma'o name does not contain a =E2=80=9CY=E2=80=9D. =
If it does
> contain a =E2=80=9CY=E2=80=9D, I append a valsi which best describes the =
selma'o.
>
>
Customarily, when the zi'evla-head begins with a vowel, we prefix [x], not
[lr], e.g. the fu'ivla for "anime" {skinrxanime}..


> Here=E2=80=99s the list of irregegular selma'o fu'ivla produced with abov=
e
> rules:
> A       cmavlra
>

zo cmavrxa .e'u


> BY      cmavrlerfu      from {lerfu}
>

.i'e


> I       cmavlri
>

Sadly, adding [x] doesn't work here as it clashes with selma'o XI.
Your proposal for the l-hyphen works, but in my opinion, it should be
limited as much as possible to the case where it is necessary, i.e. between
r and n.


> UI      cmavlrui
>

the [u] in {ui} is a consonant, so {cmavrui} is fine.


> Y       cmavrdepsna     from {depsna}
>
>
.i'e


> Using =E2=80=9Clr=E2=80=9D as seperator is kind of a hack and personally =
do not like
> it very much since there is an =E2=80=9Cl=E2=80=9D hyphen
> used although it is not neccessary here. However, the =E2=80=9Cl=E2=80=9D=
 makes clear
> that the following =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D is not part of the derived selma'o=
 name.
> =E2=80=9Ccmavnra=E2=80=9D, for example, could be misunderstood as =E2=80=
=9CRA=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9CA=E2=80=9D.
>
> However, the vast majority (>110 out of 120) of the selma'o are
> completely regular. Most of them have the form =E2=80=9Ccmavr=E2=80=9D + =
selma'o name.
>
> Example sentence:
> =E2=80=9Czo dau cmavo lo cmavrpa=E2=80=9D translates to =E2=80=9C=E2=80=
=98dau=E2=80=99 is in the selma'o =E2=80=98PA=E2=80=99.=E2=80=9D.
>

Of course, you could also just say, in perfectly ordinary grammar, without
the use of any vocab more advanced than gismu, {zo dau cmavo lo se cmavo be
zo pa}, or with slightly fancier grammar, both {zo dau cmavo zo'e ne zo pa}
and {zo dau cmavo lo me zo pa moi}. :-P


>
> I even wrote a proposal on:
> <http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/selma%27o_fu%27ivla>
> It is a bit more complete than this e-mail. It also contains some
> algorithms (spaghetti code!) to create a list.
> But beware, it=E2=80=99s still the very first draft.
>
> Comments? Ideas?
>

Overall, I like this idea very much. Moving things as much as possible away
from strange grammatical magic (e.g. {ma'oi pa}) and into simple predicates
is a good practice. Furthermore, we gain the ability to create tanru with
these new selbri, whereas before we were required to use {me}, a
forethought device of sorts.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


--001a11c2e2242bcca104e24ddde6
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">On 24 July 2013 20:17, Wuzzy <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:almikes@aol.com" target=3D"_blank">almikes@aol.com</a>&gt;</span=
> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">

Problem: To refer to a selma&#39;o in Lojban.<br>
<br>
Solution: There are already some of these. But none of these does the<br>
most obvious thing: Creating new brivla to fill the x2 place of =E2=80=9Ccm=
avo=E2=80=9D.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well, the experimental solution that i=
s used almost throughout the entire community is not one involving {la&#39;=
oi}, but rather {ma&#39;oi}, which is at least not a member of an experimen=
tal selma&#39;o. (ma&#39;oi is in ZO, whereas la&#39;oi is in ZOhOI.)</div>

<div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
My solution: Create a bunch of stage-3 fu&#39;ivla which refer to a selma&#=
39;o<br>
each.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I like this idea.</div><div>=C2=A0</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
It works like this: Use =E2=80=9Ccmavo=E2=80=9D as gismu and append the low=
er-case=E2=80=99d<br>
name of the selma&#39;o you want to translate.<br>
<br>
Examples:<br>
=E2=80=9CBAI=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Ccmavrbai=E2=80=9D<br>
=E2=80=9CDOhU=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Ccmavrdo&#39;u=E2=80=9D<br>
=E2=80=9CROI=E2=80=9D =E2=86=92 =E2=80=9Ccmavnroi=E2=80=9D (rare case of =
=E2=80=9Cn=E2=80=9D hyphen here)<br>
<br>
The only purpose of a selma&#39;o fu&#39;ivla is to refer to a selma&#39;o,=
 nothing<br>
more. Thus, the definition of a selma&#39;o fu&#39;ivla is like =E2=80=9Cx1=
 is the<br>
selma&#39;o BAI.=E2=80=9D.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>What&#39;s i=
mportant when making up definitions is not what they are in English, but ra=
ther what they are in *Lojban*. How would you define these fu&#39;ivla in *=
Lojban*? (Also, the more correct term in this case is {zi&#39;evla}. It doe=
sn&#39;t make sense to call {cmavr&lt;whatever&gt;}, a fu&#39;ivla as it is=
n&#39;t a loanword by any stretch.)</div>

<div><br></div><div>I&#39;d probably define these in Lojban with {x1 se cma=
vo zo bai .e zo ...} and list all the elements + {fo lo lojbo}. The concise=
 definition would be be {x1 se cmavo zo bai ra&#39;u fo lo lojbo}.</div>

<div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Remaining problems:<br>
fu&#39;ivla do not allow =E2=80=9Cy=E2=80=9D nor do they allow a vowel righ=
t after the<br>
gismu part.<br>
Thus, there has to be some kind of hacking around the names of the<br>
selma&#39;o =E2=80=9CA=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CBY=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=9D,=
 =E2=80=9CY=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CUI=E2=80=9D. My current attempt is to use=
 =E2=80=9Clr=E2=80=9D<br>
as seperator if the selma&#39;o name does not contain a =E2=80=9CY=E2=80=9D=
. If it does<br>
contain a =E2=80=9CY=E2=80=9D, I append a valsi which best describes the se=
lma&#39;o.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Customarily, when the zi&#39;evla-head=
 begins with a vowel, we prefix [x], not [lr], e.g. the fu&#39;ivla for &qu=
ot;anime&quot; {skinrxanime}..</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex">


Here=E2=80=99s the list of irregegular selma&#39;o fu&#39;ivla produced wit=
h above<br>
rules:<br>
A =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 cmavlra<br></blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div><div>zo cma=
vrxa .e&#39;u</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
BY =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cmavrlerfu =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0from {lerfu}<br></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div>.i&#39;e</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex">
I =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 cmavlri<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sadly, a=
dding [x] doesn&#39;t work here as it clashes with selma&#39;o XI.</div><di=
v>Your proposal for the l-hyphen works, but in my opinion, it should be lim=
ited as much as possible to the case where it is necessary, i.e. between r =
and n.</div>

<div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
UI =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cmavlrui<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>the [u]=
 in {ui} is a consonant, so {cmavrui} is fine.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex">


Y =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 cmavrdepsna =C2=A0 =C2=A0 from {depsna}<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>.i&#39;e</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">
Using =E2=80=9Clr=E2=80=9D as seperator is kind of a hack and personally do=
 not like<br>
it very much since there is an =E2=80=9Cl=E2=80=9D hyphen<br>
used although it is not neccessary here. However, the =E2=80=9Cl=E2=80=9D m=
akes clear<br>
that the following =E2=80=9Cr=E2=80=9D is not part of the derived selma&#39=
;o name.<br>
=E2=80=9Ccmavnra=E2=80=9D, for example, could be misunderstood as =E2=80=9C=
RA=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9CA=E2=80=9D.<br>
<br>
However, the vast majority (&gt;110 out of 120) of the selma&#39;o are<br>
completely regular. Most of them have the form =E2=80=9Ccmavr=E2=80=9D + se=
lma&#39;o name.<br>
<br>
Example sentence:<br>
=E2=80=9Czo dau cmavo lo cmavrpa=E2=80=9D translates to =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98d=
au=E2=80=99 is in the selma&#39;o =E2=80=98PA=E2=80=99.=E2=80=9D.<br></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>Of course, you could also just say, in perfectly=
 ordinary grammar, without the use of any vocab more advanced than gismu, {=
zo dau cmavo lo se cmavo be zo pa}, or with slightly fancier grammar, both =
{zo dau cmavo zo&#39;e ne zo pa} and {zo dau cmavo lo me zo pa moi}. :-P</d=
iv>

<div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
I even wrote a proposal on:<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/selma%27o_fu%27ivla" target=
=3D"_blank">http://mw.lojban.org/index.php/selma%27o_fu%27ivla</a>&gt;<br>
It is a bit more complete than this e-mail. It also contains some<br>
algorithms (spaghetti code!) to create a list.<br>
But beware, it=E2=80=99s still the very first draft.<br>
<br>
Comments? Ideas?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Overall, I like this i=
dea very much. Moving things as much as possible away from strange grammati=
cal magic (e.g. {ma&#39;oi pa}) and into simple predicates is a good practi=
ce. Furthermore, we gain the ability to create tanru with these new selbri,=
 whereas before we were required to use {me}, a forethought device of sorts=
.</div>

<div>=C2=A0</div><div>.i mi&#39;e la tsani mu&#39;o</div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out=
">https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out</a>.<br />
&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />

--001a11c2e2242bcca104e24ddde6--