Received: from mail-ve0-f191.google.com ([209.85.128.191]:61025) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1V2Cyy-00057n-8b for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2013 21:16:57 -0700 Received: by mail-ve0-f191.google.com with SMTP id da11sf61431veb.28 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2013 21:16:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=sender:x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=csGfAAK7hOJi4ukK70fBGIuaBCkT72QkldpkSkM+Wo0=; b=kf9y1hnmskMeV+05DAXzhCo7Q8GoB/8pSqo8ItzysXg7rBVOKN8L8CiAFDJCCweOEb TcDwykVwVvQsYjwi4Iv3CE94JDohcJqJAp+ouzyU1ikw/f9PVnT18+CNNDUlt9kagrGG dCBbbsuLOmA73YPumOz+Yld8wi2HNDh8ecqia1Lociy/P6e4TyNoxW5QbG04syaYfj7Y bZFUzUIuPahsGk+UBJ4S9EVvsRyt5gfvZZO0NGxunW0ifLEprL2iv9uJkUMzpqFuxSAw 8A74j8AnXmkWnS//SfQ3LK6DSo5vL8nwRH7FO61dYydRltMtQiR3D2HVjQtqWFkpP/7Z tMuw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=csGfAAK7hOJi4ukK70fBGIuaBCkT72QkldpkSkM+Wo0=; b=GGmm77OIjp0q8ecAaq/VUhhtytdxzVKg3nxUTe5dFGKy6Q4EOgqA8hQ7Zkd5UehyHl peTlZ0b6cJMp6aBLa4K1dxN/rFrdd/rMZmfgwSObOD4ylhYEWHBUBLBkTWR/+F8ZC382 vhMCwG1KXuxSj0mrsM3g9VtE2zLwgamhdrrAcG+oi2WPi7sMLWLWXPro05xtdgUTbQRZ eGMzFTkW6qQSJExz56oL1reTSmAvVaa2A2/VEn6LoCNzqNTDFqwN8d84b2hSykfNNRw6 hFytWeBaTirLTr3uvHQQdUZvHHDXKN1lwhBO7O0SahoxW/2fWFe4YqrthzJRWMobez4j flUw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=csGfAAK7hOJi4ukK70fBGIuaBCkT72QkldpkSkM+Wo0=; b=MAsKQce7DLlf1mq42V9zWYH1wJC+7PCUaxkauNJfslqIDAb6VBcrsI8VfG7Y0vTLPO 3yOtMrYKjxaFEFdfqbNAv1Vz5fcu9sbh53P1j7nuI72cdDIZDO6t66S65Kd2u8ximdhz Q54HEbkrbwpMl4hk67sFCGEBmBQrTMSaX5E3a/3zmlTlzroKLyscQicQy0A9OjAjr4X/ x7MFvcGMcbZg9sSZ5/fH/B/V1gm8owuS3qcjLlvLwrRwqtk9RgINke109y7G7PVI9hl4 yxypJJ7aiejdIzdX/5kHLrTZxi/OoDMkEf1hSTUdzsBdu9+Opf08ZoZBo7pS5GlkJhOQ 2/xw== X-Received: by 10.50.127.239 with SMTP id nj15mr48530igb.17.1374725805631; Wed, 24 Jul 2013 21:16:45 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.33.38 with SMTP id o6ls3069795igi.38.canary; Wed, 24 Jul 2013 21:16:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.43.164.201 with SMTP id mt9mr26896989icc.21.1374725804945; Wed, 24 Jul 2013 21:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x232.google.com (mail-ob0-x232.google.com [2607:f8b0:4003:c01::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i7si98400iga.1.2013.07.24.21.16.44 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Jul 2013 21:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c01::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4003:c01::232; Received: by mail-ob0-f178.google.com with SMTP id fb19so468345obc.37 for ; Wed, 24 Jul 2013 21:16:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.60.135.167 with SMTP id pt7mr40168589oeb.59.1374725804591; Wed, 24 Jul 2013 21:16:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.105.169 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Jul 2013 21:16:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20130725035341.2b120f2c@aol.com> References: <20130725035341.2b120f2c@aol.com> From: Jacob Errington Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 00:16:24 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Expressing Lojban concepts in Lojban To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c01::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b3a849c3f1a4b04e24e4b7c X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 1 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: On 24 July 2013 21:53, Wuzzy wrote: > Hi, it’s Wuzzy again. In my Lojban studies I encountered there are a lot > of Lojban concepts not expressed by any brivla. Especially the CLL > introduces a lot of concepts which are specifict to Lojban only, yet > Lojban has no brivla for them yet. The English words that lack a Lojban > brivla are, in no particular order: > > * “letteral”/“letter” (“letteral” here means “word that represents a > letter”, for Lojban that is “abu”, “by”, etc. For the sake of > simplicity, this definition does not exclude compound words like “abu” > = “a bu”. And “letter” is the usual English meaning . Now the annoying > thing is, it seems to me that lojbanists seem to currently use “lerfu” > to mean “letter” and “letteral” exchangingly. This needs to change > quickly.), > [...] Content analysis details: (0.1 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: googlegroups.com] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (nictytan[at]gmail.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid --047d7b3a849c3f1a4b04e24e4b7c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 24 July 2013 21:53, Wuzzy wrote: > Hi, it=92s Wuzzy again. In my Lojban studies I encountered there are a lo= t > of Lojban concepts not expressed by any brivla. Especially the CLL > introduces a lot of concepts which are specifict to Lojban only, yet > Lojban has no brivla for them yet. The English words that lack a Lojban > brivla are, in no particular order: > > * =93letteral=94/=93letter=94 (=93letteral=94 here means =93word that re= presents a > letter=94, for Lojban that is =93abu=94, =93by=94, etc. For the sake of > simplicity, this definition does not exclude compound words like =93abu= =94 > =3D =93a bu=94. And =93letter=94 is the usual English meaning . Now the a= nnoying > thing is, it seems to me that lojbanists seem to currently use =93lerfu= =94 > to mean =93letter=94 and =93letteral=94 exchangingly. This needs to chang= e > quickly.), > lerfu1 is simply one single instance of a member of the character set/alphabet/encoding/what-have-you in lerfu2. Saying {zo ly lerfu} is wrong, because a word is not a letter. Saying {zo .a lerfu} is also wrong for the same reason. To quote a letter, we use unevaluated mekso, and then just promise not to quote more than one letter (unless of course we're talking about ligatures or other such multi-letter single-letter schenanigans.) Correct: {me'o by lerfu}. If we want to talk about "a word that represents a letter"... Why don't we just say what we mean? {lo lerfu cmavo/valsi}. > * =93diphtong=94, > Operating under the definition "a diphthong is two consecutive vowels that are within the same syllable" {slaka pamei voksna (bo lerfu) remei} seems to do the trick. > * =93vowel pair=94 (the lojban vowel pairs of the form =93V'V=94 like = =93a'a=94, =93a'e=94, and so on.), > {voksna remei (be fi'o tersei (pe'a(ru'e)) y'ybu} or maybe {sepli be fi y'ybu ke vokna remei} > * =93vowel=94 (in the lojbanic sense, can be either spoken or written) > (=93vowel=94 in the sense of =93sound=94 is =93karsna=94), > * =93consonant=94 (in the lojbanic sense, can be either spoken or writte= n) > (=93consonant=94 in the sense of =93sound=94 is =93zunsna=94), > Use voksna or zunsna and suffix with {lerfu} or use other conversion mechanisms to get at the other meaning. > * =93consonant cluster=94, > zunsna(le'u) za'umei > * =93consonant pair=94, > zunsna(le'u) remei > * =93consonant triple=94, > co'e cimei > * =93initial consonant pair=94 (CLL, 3.7), > valsi tolfa'o (pe'a) ke zunsna(le'u) remei > * =93buffer=94 (CLL, 3.8), > zunsna sepli sance > * =93stress=94 (CLL, 3.9), > Something or other with basna. Under most conditions, {lo ka basna} is incorrect with the modern interpretation of {ka} as a lambda function. > * =93hyphen=94 (extra letter to build words [Lojban-specific]), > terjo'e lerfu You could probably make a zi'evla for added precision. Something like "lerfrterjo'e =3D x1 is a hyphen-letter used to join x2 (left-hand) to x3 (right-hand)." However, terjonle'u is a sensible lujvo. > * =93lojbanic letter=94 (letter that is part of Lojban=92s alphabet), > jbole'u =3D x1 lerfu lo lojbo x2 > * =93stage fu'ivla=94 where =93=94 is one of: =931=94, =932=94, = =933=94, =934=94, > Nmoi klesi fu'ivla. Note: the terms "type-1" and "type-2" "fu'ivla" are extremely uncommon because morphologically they aren't fu'ivla/zi'evla at all. > * =93delimeter=94 (in the sense of =93valsi that delimetes a =91zoi=92 > quoted string=94), > me zo zoi jimte valsi > * =935-letter rafsi=94, > lerfu mumei rafsi > * =934-letter rafsi=94, > lerfu vomei rafsi > * =93long rafsi=94 =3D a 5-letter rafsi or a 4-letter rafsi, > barda rafsi > * =933-letter rafsi=94 or =93short rafsi=94, > cmalu rafsi > * =93unreduced lujvo=94 a lujvo that is made from at least one long rafs= i, > {lo lujvo poi barda po'o rafsi gunma} > * =93fully reduced lujvo=94: a lujvo that is made from short rafsi only, > {lo lujvo poi cmalu traji rafsi gunma} > * =93asymmetrical lujvo=94, > * =93utterance=94 in the broad sense of =93thing that a KOhA2 cmavo refe= rs > to=94, > jufra (gunma) > * =93abstractor=94 and > sucta (gerna) cmavo > * =93implicit-abstraction lujvo=94. > Beats me. Mind you, many lujvo use implicit abstractions. In fact, my criterion for lujvo regularity is based on composition using implicit abstractor rafsi. > > I am asking the mailing list for ideas on how to translate above > concepts into Lojban. Yes, it=92s a long list but you don=92t have to > translate everything at once. ;-) Even translation of one concept would > help. :-) It would be best to coin a new lujvo for each concept. > > To show that it is possible to express Lojban=92s concepts in Lojban, > here is a brivla I invented quite a time ago: > =93to lojbanize (a name)=94 =3D =93jbocmefanva=94 =3D > =93f1=3Dc3 translates non-Lojban name c1=3Df2 (text) from language f4 to > (lojbanic) cmevla / lojbanized name f5=3Dl1 (text).=94 > How about a Lojban definition? .i mi'e la tsani mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --047d7b3a849c3f1a4b04e24e4b7c Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 24 July 2013 21:53, Wuzzy <almikes@aol.com> wrote:
Hi, it=92s Wuzzy again. In my Lojban studies I encountered there are a lot<= br> of Lojban concepts not expressed by any brivla. Especially the CLL
introduces a lot of concepts which are specifict to Lojban only, yet
Lojban has no brivla for them yet. The English words that lack a Lojban
brivla are, in no particular order:

=A0* =93letteral=94/=93letter=94 (=93letteral=94 here means =93word that re= presents a
letter=94, for Lojban that is =93abu=94, =93by=94, etc. For the sake of
simplicity, this definition does not exclude compound words like =93abu=94<= br> =3D =93a bu=94. And =93letter=94 is the usual English meaning . Now the ann= oying
thing is, it seems to me that lojbanists seem to currently use =93lerfu=94<= br> to mean =93letter=94 and =93letteral=94 exchangingly. This needs to change<= br> quickly.),

lerfu1 is simply one single = instance of a member of the character set/alphabet/encoding/what-have-you i= n lerfu2.
Saying {zo ly lerfu} is wrong, because a word is not a = letter. Saying {zo .a lerfu} is also wrong for the same reason. To quote a = letter, we use unevaluated mekso, and then just promise not to quote more t= han one letter (unless of course we're talking about ligatures or other= such multi-letter single-letter schenanigans.)

Correct: {me'o by lerfu}.
If we want to t= alk about "a word that represents a letter"... Why don't we j= ust say what we mean? {lo lerfu cmavo/valsi}.
=A0
=A0* =93diphtong=94,

Operating under th= e definition "a diphthong is two consecutive vowels that are within th= e same syllable" {slaka pamei voksna (bo lerfu) remei} seems to do the= trick.
=A0
=A0* =93vowel pair=94 (the lojban vowel pairs of the form =93V'V=94 lik= e =93a'a=94,=A0
=93a'e=94, and so on.),

{voksn= a remei (be fi'o tersei (pe'a(ru'e)) y'ybu}
or ma= ybe {sepli be fi y'ybu ke vokna remei}
=A0
=A0* =93vowel=94 (in the lojbanic sense, can be either spoken or written) (=93vowel=94 in the sense of =93sound=94 is =93karsna=94),
=A0* =93consonant=94 (in the lojbanic sense, can be either spoken or writte= n)
(=93consonant=94 in the sense of =93sound=94 is =93zunsna=94),

Use voksna or zunsna and suffix with {lerfu} or use= other conversion mechanisms to get at the other meaning.
=A0
=A0* =93consonant cluster=94,

zunsna(le= 'u) za'umei
=A0
=A0* =93consonant pair=94,

zunsna(le= 9;u) remei
=A0
=A0* =93consonant triple=94,

co'e c= imei
=A0
=A0* =93initial consonant pair=94 (CLL, 3.7),

valsi tolfa'o (pe'a) ke zunsna(le'u) remei
=A0=
=A0* =93buffer=94 (CLL, 3.8),

zunsna se= pli sance
=A0
=A0* =93stress=94 (CLL, 3.9),

Something= or other with basna. Under most conditions, {lo ka basna} is incorrect wit= h the modern interpretation of {ka} as a lambda function.
=A0
=A0* =93hyphen=94 (extra letter to build words [Lojban-specific]),

terjo'e lerfu
You could probably = make a zi'evla for added precision.
Something like "lerf= rterjo'e =3D x1 is a hyphen-letter used to join x2 (left-hand) to x3 (r= ight-hand)."
However, terjonle'u is a sensible lujvo.
=A0
=A0* =93lojbanic letter=94 (letter that is part of Lojban=92s alphabet),

jbole'u =3D x1 lerfu lo lojbo x2
=A0
=A0* =93stage <n> fu'ivla=94 where =93<n>=94 is one of: =93= 1=94, =932=94, =933=94, =934=94,

Nmoi k= lesi fu'ivla.
Note: the terms "type-1" and "ty= pe-2" "fu'ivla" are extremely uncommon because morpholog= ically they aren't fu'ivla/zi'evla at all.
=A0
=A0* =93delimeter=94 (in the sense of =93valsi that delimetes a =91zoi=92 quoted string=94),

me zo zoi jimte vals= i
=A0
=A0* =935-letter rafsi=94,

lerfu mumei = rafsi
=A0
=A0* =934-letter rafsi=94,

lerfu vomei = rafsi
=A0
=A0* =93long rafsi=94 =3D a 5-letter rafsi or a 4-letter rafsi,

barda rafsi
=A0
=A0* =933-letter rafsi=94 or =93short rafsi=94,

cmalu rafsi
=A0
=A0* =93unreduced lujvo=94 a lujvo that is made from at least one long rafs= i,

{lo lujvo poi barda po'o rafsi g= unma}
=A0
=A0* =93fully reduced lujvo=94: a lujvo that is made from short rafsi only,=

{lo lujvo poi cmalu traji rafsi gunma}=
=A0
=A0* =93asymmetrical lujvo=94,
=A0* =93utterance=94 in the broad sense of =93thing that a KOhA2 cmavo refe= rs
to=94,

jufra (gunma)
=A0
=A0* =93abstractor=94 and

sucta (gerna)= cmavo
=A0
=A0* =93implicit-abstraction lujvo=94.

= Beats me. Mind you, many lujvo use implicit abstractions.=A0
In f= act, my criterion for lujvo regularity is based on composition using implic= it abstractor rafsi.
=A0

I am asking the mailing list for ideas on how to translate above
concepts into Lojban. Yes, it=92s a long list but you don=92t have to
translate everything at once. ;-) Even translation of one concept would
help. :-) It would be best to coin a new lujvo for each concept.

To show that it is possible to express Lojban=92s concepts in Lojban,
here is a brivla I invented quite a time ago:
=93to lojbanize (a name)=94 =3D =93jbocmefanva=94 =3D
=93f1=3Dc3 translates non-Lojban name c1=3Df2 (text) from language f4 to (lojbanic) cmevla / lojbanized name f5=3Dl1 (text).=94

How about a Lojban definition?

.i = mi'e la tsani mu'o

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
--047d7b3a849c3f1a4b04e24e4b7c--