Received: from mail-ee0-f64.google.com ([74.125.83.64]:42710) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1V2yIr-0007Dl-LN for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2013 23:48:40 -0700 Received: by mail-ee0-f64.google.com with SMTP id e52sf33114eek.9 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2013 23:48:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=lT5iY6MXykVBcgWzxiCVV2rc7b9kFlPg2i5LzPUhLdY=; b=ZYxCgSEiTGdxDd5i+dPKS2XC6tmbBnwP9vMP5zmdMIh4m44oaWS6RxiX8hZJdCAJaK VPDIRIXBrMr94JI+4v4UW7UrVkkOxdxGcZsvHHuhD1wdmsQARklVQgS+htGCPFsyAT5I HiwoP2PmLzLCJPKYkJFe/bww5Yr84eTape7Ad6yWra6eP+RYqxvIsnawEALAKktkxG1Q oDCO8JRWcL3An0dTXQcPycHva+g4giuUD+6NzhaVaSk+v8/WxgagfvYRd68CBDg8Xntf quQGrAuuge1D4XWF16aFDyGkpiN4t8PtNF57YSBkzbmnAwxu1erKCBOcCU69Is3MFpNg Iodg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=lT5iY6MXykVBcgWzxiCVV2rc7b9kFlPg2i5LzPUhLdY=; b=V8BRk2QcXa1O2caJsui/xbqoWzhP6uZcU33JPQrUbN+j1Mh/+8PxEy/vibN5lFNZEM 6/T0DzHs3DHpMQIbeM2braKIkCOUA3iQ8nAPS4MtoNgVUP6zvAmMlJQM5AL1QbD70Q9x ovkhTZSWs+lHTyMBqkpoSm5MEoVWcznnHEWwRVE86fjHir0aioUr7Ruez8lfyKAaD6m/ suAREYdkzYgJa0hMDfZy3rKyTzj6ROYWvGddSA2QpavgWg49xqA8Emu8lDAgszY4gg6f xDaiPf2Qh53itTgKMcCYoel3thVLLznExDUGfmyFInf+yTe1Dza2hT6R4dttOy9AtcvX DkJg== X-Received: by 10.181.11.234 with SMTP id el10mr57036wid.18.1374907706202; Fri, 26 Jul 2013 23:48:26 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.77.227 with SMTP id v3ls297106wiw.27.canary; Fri, 26 Jul 2013 23:48:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.204.186.7 with SMTP id cq7mr2887440bkb.3.1374907705748; Fri, 26 Jul 2013 23:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x22d.google.com (mail-la0-x22d.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c03::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id nl4si3116958bkb.2.2013.07.26.23.48.25 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 26 Jul 2013 23:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c03::22d; Received: by mail-la0-f45.google.com with SMTP id ev20so2903124lab.18 for ; Fri, 26 Jul 2013 23:48:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.44.133 with SMTP id e5mr23207523lam.15.1374907705313; Fri, 26 Jul 2013 23:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.180.36 with HTTP; Fri, 26 Jul 2013 23:48:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <57d7137b-09dd-459a-93af-a0c4c6d05a4b@googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 00:48:25 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: umami taste From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c03::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0160a4785fd0ef04e278a572 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e0160a4785fd0ef04e278a572 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'm just saying that the meaning isn't changed by the fact that idiots think gay means homosexual. On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:29 AM, la arxokuna wrote: > > > On Saturday, July 27, 2013 9:50:41 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >> >> Except that "gay" still does mean what it did when the definition was >> written, so the meaning wasn't changed at all. >> >> The *interpretation* of the word "gay" in the U.S. has changed, but >> that's the fault of the populace. :) >> > > ke'u > I suggest this because we already have a registered incident on IRC when > one nintadni thought that {gleki} covered the sense of {mitcinpa'i} as well. > This is NOT the problem of Lojban. This is only the problem of English > changing. > > If "gay" no longer means "merry" (or it's almost never used in such sense > nowadays) then the definition should be changed accordingly. > > > (And no one forbids you to translate gimste to "Old English" zo'o) > > >> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:59 PM, la arxokuna wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:20:42 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote: >>>> >>>> Of course, "umami" can also be an adjective in English. All you have to >>>> do is use it that way. >>>> >>> >>> Unfortunately not all people know what is umami. So I added this awkward >>> wording "has umami taste" to explicitly show what I'm talking about. >>> When more people learn about this word the *English* definition might be >>> changed (without changing lojbani semantics). >>> >>> E.g. recently in bpfk-list I suggested changing the definition of >>> {gleki} from >>> x1 is happy/merry/gay/glad/gleeful about x2 (event/state). >>> to >>> x1 is happy/merry/glad/gleeful about x2 (event/state). >>> >>> just because one English word completely changed it's meaning. >>> >>> >>> >>>> stevo >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:16 PM, wrote: >>>> >>>>> There aren't gismu for all the accepted ground tastes? I'm surprised. >>>>> >>>>> krumami - x1 has an umami taste to observer x2. >>>>> titla - x1 is sweet/sugary/saccharine to observer x2. >>>>> slari - x1 is sour/tart to observer x2. >>>>> kurki - x1 is bitter/acrid/sharply disagreeable to observer/sense x2. >>>>> >>>>> So far so good. But then: >>>>> >>>>> silna - x1 is a portion/quantity of salt from source x2, of >>>>> composition including x3. >>>>> >>>>> Surely a bare "silna" can't be good to use in this context since it >>>>> actually refers to the physical salt (which is not clear, are we strictly >>>>> speaking NaCl here or all salts - ionic compounds?). >>>>> >>>>> Good you added krumami. That is *extremely welcomed* by me. But, I >>>>> would considering changing the definition to be more in line with the >>>>> others. My proposal: >>>>> krumami - x1 is umami to observer x2. >>>>> >>>>> (...Ehm. You may ignore the above. I actually thought umami was an >>>>> adjective as well in English, since that would be logical. Unfortunately, I >>>>> can't find any proof of it.) >>>>> >>>>> Still. I miss the: >>>>> x1 is salty to observer x2 >>>>> >>>>> Am I missing something? >>>>> >>>>> mi'e la .gusek. mu'o >>>>> >>>>> Den tisdagen den 16:e juli 2013 kl. 09:54:06 UTC+2 skrev la arxokuna: >>>>> >>>>>> {krumami} >>>>>> >>>>>> x1 has umami taste to observer x2. >>>>>> >>>>>> Etymology: Romance [karo], Mandarin [rou4] ("meat"), Japanese [umami] >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>> . >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --089e0160a4785fd0ef04e278a572 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm just saying that the meaning isn't changed by the fact that idi= ots think gay means homosexual.

On Sat, J= ul 27, 2013 at 12:29 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:


On Saturday, July = 27, 2013 9:50:41 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
Except that "gay" still does mean what it did when the definition= was written, so the meaning wasn't changed at all.

The inter= pretation of the word "gay" in the U.S. has changed, but that= 's the fault of the populace. :)

ke'u
I suggest this be= cause we already have a registered incident on IRC when one nintadni though= t that {gleki} covered the sense of {mitcinpa'i} as well.
This is NOT the problem of Lojban. This is only the problem of English chan= ging.

If "gay" no longer means "mer= ry" (or it's almost never used in such sense nowadays) then the de= finition should be changed accordingly.


(And no one forbids you to translate gim= ste to "Old English" zo'o)=A0


On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:59 PM, la arxokuna= <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:20:42 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote:
Of course, "umami= " can also be an adjective in English. All you have to do is use it th= at way.=A0

Unfortunately not all people know wh= at is umami. So I added this awkward wording "has umami taste" to= explicitly show what I'm talking about.
When more people lea= rn about this word the *English* definition might be changed (without chang= ing lojbani semantics).

E.g. recently in bpfk-list I suggested changing the def= inition of {gleki} from
x1 is happy/merry/gay/glad/gleeful about = x2 (event/state).
to=A0
x1 is happy/merry/glad/glee= ful about x2 (event/state).

just because one English word completely changed = it's meaning.



stevo


On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <gunnar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
There aren't gismu for all th= e accepted ground tastes? I'm surprised.

krumami - x1 has an uma= mi taste to observer x2.
titla - x1 is sweet/sugary/saccharine to observer x2.
slari - x1 is sour= /tart to observer x2.
kurki - x1 is bitter/acrid/sharply disagreeable to= observer/sense x2.

So far so good. But then:

silna - x1 is a= portion/quantity of salt from source x2, of composition including x3.

Surely a bare "silna" can't be good to use in this contex= t since it actually refers to the physical salt (which is not clear, are we= strictly speaking NaCl here or all salts - ionic compounds?).

Good you added krumami. That is extremely welcomed by me. But, I wou= ld considering changing the definition to be more in line with the others. = My proposal:
krumami - x1 is umami to observer x2.

(...Ehm. You may ignore the ab= ove. I actually thought umami was an adjective as well in English, since th= at would be logical. Unfortunately, I can't find any proof of it.)

Still. I miss the:
x1 is salty to observer x2

Am I missing so= mething?

mi'e la .gusek. mu'o

Den tisdagen den 16:e j= uli 2013 kl. 09:54:06 UTC+2 skrev la arxokuna:
{krumami}

x1 has= umami taste to observer x2.

Etymology: Romanc= e [karo], Mandarin [rou4] ("meat"), Japanese [umami]

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.




--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima= lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot = Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
=A0
=A0



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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