Received: from mail-oa0-f62.google.com ([209.85.219.62]:63096) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1V33Cu-0001ll-KQ for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 05:02:53 -0700 Received: by mail-oa0-f62.google.com with SMTP id n12sf1198900oag.7 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 05:02:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=PZsjsiWpD6BAM6JbkUmS8BYOCJlrfr35FRVqGP0B9Mw=; b=XyOjXUIbxrJLGJmm2k1K8lads8P+um4s98KxgeQEOxLTqs3PhpU+r3WI1wTfVoarWR QSvHVIdcvRoVI/PDzyEYbxEUl6vUBY7bos/0luVIhBkuVtlBsZhAEbXhoKXDYIfNg1cG 9HkuTQq25euQ99WoqgCZ98MqkbwBcsWPyMmkDB3fISJO3JST4l3yWzM2/IsgtcC1kDdZ Kdt9+iyP3/R7YZORYZlkBS0J0OkF7b4G1I5N/5DEYBFQSShwEP/nS65KQ5UYOXkHHUp+ j/orj8FoBdwWpKHCahkShMmCnfbyX8Th8P7KVm+XW46pDblbejZhvFhlKBfjdmCM3YsV V+5Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=PZsjsiWpD6BAM6JbkUmS8BYOCJlrfr35FRVqGP0B9Mw=; b=Qsga3lGczYMmLMcqFsEpQgweuoZzNczMy5s33r1d+faTv8+2T1eoREDM/JWq9JNm6+ KXSabGf3rCnOmj8BgcXOQsAlQLsyHi9GAPWUH78ymZ4xKzlBhZp4Y9OkrmXaLAkRLvAp P8/BZM9F/DoiTDNaVDANWL7Qt3gq8ipnBLdrXS5HbcB7TiijPTwDZgiGFkuz+0Uuat1f y1Udjvv+cBz0mYsFEC8zghfYeUGDPjMFsLHfr2EkNOsjVHqAKx8ywLstHdcx7Oa3bNs4 F5+MXLtFhhPIeWNyCc/jyJDj5Ph1as04oNAmB9fbQ10qlhOMUIq7mHNBHpXympnHQgha n9XQ== X-Received: by 10.49.1.112 with SMTP id 16mr1876679qel.20.1374926558283; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 05:02:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.24.138 with SMTP id u10ls1385807qef.75.gmail; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 05:02:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.58.216.100 with SMTP id op4mr6275102vec.15.1374926557429; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 05:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x234.google.com (mail-ve0-x234.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c01::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y12si2110902vdi.0.2013.07.27.05.02.37 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 27 Jul 2013 05:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c01::234; Received: by mail-ve0-f180.google.com with SMTP id pb11so616441veb.39 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 05:02:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.52.114.10 with SMTP id jc10mr14853226vdb.37.1374926557250; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 05:02:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.65.138 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 05:02:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <57d7137b-09dd-459a-93af-a0c4c6d05a4b@googlegroups.com> From: ".arpis." Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 08:02:17 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: umami taste To: Lojban X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec5485a16099af204e27d0998 X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --bcaec5485a16099af204e27d0998 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 doi aionys, "gay" _does_ mean "homosexual". The first two definitions on dictionary.com support me. It also has a secondary meaning, but that meaning has fallen out of use in the US (I can't speak for other English speaking populations). Also, the meaning _is_ changed by the fact that most people associate "homosexual" with "gay" so much more strongly than they do "happy" that they get confused; this is natural _descriptivist_ evolution of language. On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 2:48 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > I'm just saying that the meaning isn't changed by the fact that idiots > think gay means homosexual. > > > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:29 AM, la arxokuna wrote: > >> >> >> On Saturday, July 27, 2013 9:50:41 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >>> >>> Except that "gay" still does mean what it did when the definition was >>> written, so the meaning wasn't changed at all. >>> >>> The *interpretation* of the word "gay" in the U.S. has changed, but >>> that's the fault of the populace. :) >>> >> >> ke'u >> I suggest this because we already have a registered incident on IRC when >> one nintadni thought that {gleki} covered the sense of {mitcinpa'i} as well. >> This is NOT the problem of Lojban. This is only the problem of English >> changing. >> >> If "gay" no longer means "merry" (or it's almost never used in such sense >> nowadays) then the definition should be changed accordingly. >> >> >> (And no one forbids you to translate gimste to "Old English" zo'o) >> >> >>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:59 PM, la arxokuna wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:20:42 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Of course, "umami" can also be an adjective in English. All you have >>>>> to do is use it that way. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Unfortunately not all people know what is umami. So I added this >>>> awkward wording "has umami taste" to explicitly show what I'm talking about. >>>> When more people learn about this word the *English* definition might >>>> be changed (without changing lojbani semantics). >>>> >>>> E.g. recently in bpfk-list I suggested changing the definition of >>>> {gleki} from >>>> x1 is happy/merry/gay/glad/gleeful about x2 (event/state). >>>> to >>>> x1 is happy/merry/glad/gleeful about x2 (event/state). >>>> >>>> just because one English word completely changed it's meaning. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> stevo >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:16 PM, wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> There aren't gismu for all the accepted ground tastes? I'm surprised. >>>>>> >>>>>> krumami - x1 has an umami taste to observer x2. >>>>>> titla - x1 is sweet/sugary/saccharine to observer x2. >>>>>> slari - x1 is sour/tart to observer x2. >>>>>> kurki - x1 is bitter/acrid/sharply disagreeable to observer/sense x2. >>>>>> >>>>>> So far so good. But then: >>>>>> >>>>>> silna - x1 is a portion/quantity of salt from source x2, of >>>>>> composition including x3. >>>>>> >>>>>> Surely a bare "silna" can't be good to use in this context since it >>>>>> actually refers to the physical salt (which is not clear, are we strictly >>>>>> speaking NaCl here or all salts - ionic compounds?). >>>>>> >>>>>> Good you added krumami. That is *extremely welcomed* by me. But, I >>>>>> would considering changing the definition to be more in line with the >>>>>> others. My proposal: >>>>>> krumami - x1 is umami to observer x2. >>>>>> >>>>>> (...Ehm. You may ignore the above. I actually thought umami was an >>>>>> adjective as well in English, since that would be logical. Unfortunately, I >>>>>> can't find any proof of it.) >>>>>> >>>>>> Still. I miss the: >>>>>> x1 is salty to observer x2 >>>>>> >>>>>> Am I missing something? >>>>>> >>>>>> mi'e la .gusek. mu'o >>>>>> >>>>>> Den tisdagen den 16:e juli 2013 kl. 09:54:06 UTC+2 skrev la arxokuna: >>>>>> >>>>>>> {krumami} >>>>>>> >>>>>>> x1 has umami taste to observer x2. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Etymology: Romance [karo], Mandarin [rou4] ("meat"), Japanese [umami] >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban >>>>>> . >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- mu'o mi'e .arpis. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --bcaec5485a16099af204e27d0998 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
doi aionys, "gay" _does_ mean "homosexual&q= uot;. The first two definitions on dictio= nary.com support me. It also has a secondary meaning, but that meaning = has fallen out of use in the US (I can't speak for other English speaki= ng populations).

Also, the meaning _is_ changed by the fact that most people associate &= quot;homosexual" with "gay" so much more strongly than they = do "happy" that they get confused; this is natural _descriptivist= _ evolution of language.


On Sat,= Jul 27, 2013 at 2:48 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>= wrote:
I'm just saying that the meaning isn'= ;t changed by the fact that idiots think gay means homosexual.


On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 a= t 12:29 AM, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


On Saturday, July 27, 2013 9:50= :41 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
Except that "gay" still does mean what it did when the definition= was written, so the meaning wasn't changed at all.

The inter= pretation of the word "gay" in the U.S. has changed, but that= 's the fault of the populace. :)

ke'u
I suggest this be= cause we already have a registered incident on IRC when one nintadni though= t that {gleki} covered the sense of {mitcinpa'i} as well.
This is NOT the problem of Lojban. This is only the problem of English chan= ging.

If "gay" no longer means "mer= ry" (or it's almost never used in such sense nowadays) then the de= finition should be changed accordingly.


(And no one forbids you to translate gim= ste to "Old English" zo'o)=A0


On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:59 PM, la arxokuna= <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:20:42 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote:
Of course, "umami= " can also be an adjective in English. All you have to do is use it th= at way.=A0

Unfortunately not all people know wh= at is umami. So I added this awkward wording "has umami taste" to= explicitly show what I'm talking about.
When more people lea= rn about this word the *English* definition might be changed (without chang= ing lojbani semantics).

E.g. recently in bpfk-list I suggested changing the def= inition of {gleki} from
x1 is happy/merry/gay/glad/gleeful about = x2 (event/state).
to=A0
x1 is happy/merry/glad/glee= ful about x2 (event/state).

just because one English word completely changed = it's meaning.



stevo


On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <gunnar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
There aren't gismu for all th= e accepted ground tastes? I'm surprised.

krumami - x1 has an uma= mi taste to observer x2.
titla - x1 is sweet/sugary/saccharine to observer x2.
slari - x1 is sour= /tart to observer x2.
kurki - x1 is bitter/acrid/sharply disagreeable to= observer/sense x2.

So far so good. But then:

silna - x1 is a= portion/quantity of salt from source x2, of composition including x3.

Surely a bare "silna" can't be good to use in this contex= t since it actually refers to the physical salt (which is not clear, are we= strictly speaking NaCl here or all salts - ionic compounds?).

Good you added krumami. That is extremely welcomed by me. But, I wou= ld considering changing the definition to be more in line with the others. = My proposal:
krumami - x1 is umami to observer x2.

(...Ehm. You may ignore the ab= ove. I actually thought umami was an adjective as well in English, since th= at would be logical. Unfortunately, I can't find any proof of it.)

Still. I miss the:
x1 is salty to observer x2

Am I missing so= mething?

mi'e la .gusek. mu'o

Den tisdagen den 16:e j= uli 2013 kl. 09:54:06 UTC+2 skrev la arxokuna:
{krumami}

x1 has= umami taste to observer x2.

Etymology: Romanc= e [karo], Mandarin [rou4] ("meat"), Japanese [umami]

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.




--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
=A0
=A0



--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
=A0
=A0



--
mu'o mi= 'e .arpis.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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