Received: from mail-pa0-f56.google.com ([209.85.220.56]:58666) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1V33ok-0001yK-Le for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 05:42:05 -0700 Received: by mail-pa0-f56.google.com with SMTP id fa1sf1302749pad.11 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 05:41:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=3iPodZNHsaJi4bFS4mwNUNIrlkM2UUYNaiWop1jJPUA=; b=G7xhVTWZbE9AKEXYRsMNVZ5cJ0hZ9mxSgiUeRXOdsFYU2nCkeuGrpKQNcgCiu51tcx b5cRLZSEeaXRj3EMb++a05MQGaVp8tWkIrYegmVeyPoZ4+AZ3Hosm9VgRs2TJ7CNF2U+ qpbY3v3U1QLne2hLt/G/OyiykAhN4HBzAmhQ4FEZdp63QLByvm5i/vJqR7cgAlpS63Hu TW8fVnKlOgLWXYuLya8qku5Z1/cbXDGkJAJA3dwlpi/Lq5tEzpCwQu6lLQ2Ny8t4IZhG Nt3d6chutFsMt3v4+6l09TV9XJEbpfU4WGkyoWhZJDfskgBYau6Jq1ShsixsPuesI7aO 0wAw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=3iPodZNHsaJi4bFS4mwNUNIrlkM2UUYNaiWop1jJPUA=; b=wXvOx/8eG5Q/KWcFHIHjhyIFe7taNoAGOz5Cy1xN3F99ebZnWeLfNUkYHZlu7oyc2C GHAx8G3eXAD2Taxy7ZfXWSxcJxDL2a35wQkHpzC6C1BV3OCwR6Mz/ZVY8Oqo8JJd/pW2 LovD4gDTLHZ3piNo9C+uTXYhCaFJfe1rG1WSB+KMbOawHaTLogjvdldoTEmb7tIMZlwM w4Xfa53LDp7iSZAFLe8RyteeNW6n8oluaX5kYKR1sSf5YEmNq4Ce9YzvsARq/eV1t5Wl U3Is3ky2lMbp569mHKB34PVnpsaNFn3ixQPeZLozNrzt/aClU41tGM6ogu0cIsRTn/gW qVVA== X-Received: by 10.49.4.201 with SMTP id m9mr1938383qem.15.1374928904212; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 05:41:44 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.104.177 with SMTP id gf17ls80061qeb.4.gmail; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 05:41:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.49.64.37 with SMTP id l5mr1204337qes.32.1374928903610; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 05:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 05:41:42 -0700 (PDT) From: la arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Cc: rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com Message-Id: <12f030eb-5a22-4539-b871-aadcd64dd27b@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <57d7137b-09dd-459a-93af-a0c4c6d05a4b@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: umami taste MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_887_32717417.1374928902969" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_887_32717417.1374928902969 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Saturday, July 27, 2013 4:02:17 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote: > > doi aionys, "gay" _does_ mean "homosexual". The first two definitions on > dictionary.com support me. It also has a secondary meaning, but that > meaning has fallen out of use in the US (I can't speak for other English > speaking populations). > > Also, the meaning _is_ changed by the fact that most people associate > "homosexual" with "gay" so much more strongly than they do "happy" that > they get confused; this is natural _descriptivist_ evolution of language. > Merriam Webster agrees with aionys. dictionary.com agrees with you. But I rely on #lojban IRC chat. If nintadni are confused it's the problem of the gimste, not nintadni. (btw, I've never seen "gay" used in the meaning of "merry" except in one song awkwardly translated into English 15 years ago). > > > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 2:48 AM, Jonathan Jones > > wrote: > >> I'm just saying that the meaning isn't changed by the fact that idiots >> think gay means homosexual. >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:29 AM, la arxokuna >> > wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, July 27, 2013 9:50:41 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >>>> >>>> Except that "gay" still does mean what it did when the definition was >>>> written, so the meaning wasn't changed at all. >>>> >>>> The *interpretation* of the word "gay" in the U.S. has changed, but >>>> that's the fault of the populace. :) >>>> >>> >>> ke'u >>> I suggest this because we already have a registered incident on IRC when >>> one nintadni thought that {gleki} covered the sense of {mitcinpa'i} as well. >>> This is NOT the problem of Lojban. This is only the problem of English >>> changing. >>> >>> If "gay" no longer means "merry" (or it's almost never used in such >>> sense nowadays) then the definition should be changed accordingly. >>> >>> >>> (And no one forbids you to translate gimste to "Old English" zo'o) >>> >>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:59 PM, la arxokuna wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:20:42 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Of course, "umami" can also be an adjective in English. All you have >>>>>> to do is use it that way. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Unfortunately not all people know what is umami. So I added this >>>>> awkward wording "has umami taste" to explicitly show what I'm talking about. >>>>> When more people learn about this word the *English* definition might >>>>> be changed (without changing lojbani semantics). >>>>> >>>>> E.g. recently in bpfk-list I suggested changing the definition of >>>>> {gleki} from >>>>> x1 is happy/merry/gay/glad/gleeful about x2 (event/state). >>>>> to >>>>> x1 is happy/merry/glad/gleeful about x2 (event/state). >>>>> >>>>> just because one English word completely changed it's meaning. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> stevo >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:16 PM, wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> There aren't gismu for all the accepted ground tastes? I'm surprised. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> krumami - x1 has an umami taste to observer x2. >>>>>>> titla - x1 is sweet/sugary/saccharine to observer x2. >>>>>>> slari - x1 is sour/tart to observer x2. >>>>>>> kurki - x1 is bitter/acrid/sharply disagreeable to observer/sense x2. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So far so good. But then: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> silna - x1 is a portion/quantity of salt from source x2, of >>>>>>> composition including x3. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Surely a bare "silna" can't be good to use in this context since it >>>>>>> actually refers to the physical salt (which is not clear, are we strictly >>>>>>> speaking NaCl here or all salts - ionic compounds?). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good you added krumami. That is *extremely welcomed* by me. But, I >>>>>>> would considering changing the definition to be more in line with the >>>>>>> others. My proposal: >>>>>>> krumami - x1 is umami to observer x2. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (...Ehm. You may ignore the above. I actually thought umami was an >>>>>>> adjective as well in English, since that would be logical. Unfortunately, I >>>>>>> can't find any proof of it.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Still. I miss the: >>>>>>> x1 is salty to observer x2 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Am I missing something? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mi'e la .gusek. mu'o >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Den tisdagen den 16:e juli 2013 kl. 09:54:06 UTC+2 skrev la arxokuna: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> {krumami} >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> x1 has umami taste to observer x2. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Etymology: Romance [karo], Mandarin [rou4] ("meat"), Japanese >>>>>>>> [umami] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group**/lojban >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**grou**ps/opt_out >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>> >>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. 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On Saturday, July 27, 2013 4:02:17 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote:
doi aionys, "gay" _do= es_ mean "homosexual". The first two definitions on dictionary.com support me. It also has a s= econdary meaning, but that meaning has fallen out of use in the US (I can't= speak for other English speaking populations).

Also, the meaning _is_ changed by the fact that most people associate "= homosexual" with "gay" so much more strongly than they do "happy" that they= get confused; this is natural _descriptivist_ evolution of language.

Merriam Webster agrees with aionys. di= ctionary.com agrees with you.
But I rely on #lojban IRC chat. If = nintadni are confused it's the problem of the gimste, not nintadni.
(btw, I've never seen "gay" used in the meaning of "merry" except in one= song awkwardly translated into English 15 years ago).
 


On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 2:48 = AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm just saying that the meaning isn't chang= ed by the fact that idiots think gay means homosexual.


On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:29 AM, l= a arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com>= wrote:


On Saturday, July 27, 2013 9:50= :41 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
Except that "gay" still does mean what it did when the definition was writt= en, so the meaning wasn't changed at all.

The interpretation = of the word "gay" in the U.S. has changed, but that's the fault of the popu= lace. :)

ke'u
I suggest this becaus= e we already have a registered incident on IRC when one nintadni thought th= at {gleki} covered the sense of {mitcinpa'i} as well.
This is NOT the problem of Lojban. This is only the problem of English chan= ging.

If "gay" no longer means "merry" (or it's al= most never used in such sense nowadays) then the definition should be chang= ed accordingly.


(And no one forbids you to translate gim= ste to "Old English" zo'o) 


On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:59 PM, la arxokuna= <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:20:42 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote:
Of course, "umami" can= also be an adjective in English. All you have to do is use it that way.&nb= sp;

Unfortunately not all people know wh= at is umami. So I added this awkward wording "has umami taste" to explicitl= y show what I'm talking about.
When more people learn about this = word the *English* definition might be changed (without changing lojbani se= mantics).

E.g. recently in bpfk-list I suggested changing the def= inition of {gleki} from
x1 is happy/merry/gay/glad/gleeful about = x2 (event/state).
to 
x1 is happy/merry/glad/g= leeful about x2 (event/state).

just because one English word completely changed = it's meaning.



stevo


On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <gunnar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
There aren't gismu for all the ac= cepted ground tastes? I'm surprised.

krumami - x1 has an umami taste= to observer x2.
titla - x1 is sweet/sugary/saccharine to observer x2.
slari - x1 is sour= /tart to observer x2.
kurki - x1 is bitter/acrid/sharply disagreeable to= observer/sense x2.

So far so good. But then:

silna - x1 is a= portion/quantity of salt from source x2, of composition including x3.

Surely a bare "silna" can't be good to use in this context since it act= ually refers to the physical salt (which is not clear, are we strictly spea= king NaCl here or all salts - ionic compounds?).

Good you added krumami. That is extremely welcomed by me. But, I wou= ld considering changing the definition to be more in line with the others. = My proposal:
krumami - x1 is umami to observer x2.

(...Ehm. You may ignore the ab= ove. I actually thought umami was an adjective as well in English, since th= at would be logical. Unfortunately, I can't find any proof of it.)

Still. I miss the:
x1 is salty to observer x2

Am I missing so= mething?

mi'e la .gusek. mu'o

Den tisdagen den 16:e juli 2013= kl. 09:54:06 UTC+2 skrev la arxokuna:
{krumami}

x1 has= umami taste to observer x2.

Etymology: Romanc= e [karo], Mandarin [rou4] ("meat"), Japanese [umami]

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.<= br> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt= _out.
 
 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 



--



--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 



--
mu'o mi'e .= arpis.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
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