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[98.139.212.163]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s12si1535169qcw.1.2013.07.27.05.53.08 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 27 Jul 2013 05:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.212.163 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.212.163; Received: from [66.196.81.172] by nm4.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jul 2013 12:53:08 -0000 Received: from [68.142.230.78] by tm18.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jul 2013 12:53:08 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp235.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jul 2013 12:53:08 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 344453.82886.bm@smtp235.mail.bf1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: NzvZ40oVM1n8OwxGfgH9AogT4sJ5i3P7AqIxzTGef9uZdZh kaEOUyphPl3MQDGvu26kvPl1uZQzqenc1YqqhrC0xZgo8E8Cj2_8mlerPpJf JKShFVB1HL84bMuQQ.SVVcoX5_KKNVgbbsgN8kSYCjeMgmIrfX3NFo.QXjxe C3cPyXuO_mSUH4JcHpc1wyIWaoijFLM8._EmNL.NeuQpo_kCwcoZR1gSIey6 .6EODZPHpECK.cOvK138Y2dlyxdtP1bkh14kvwlZOEqXMiw1jGEqP9iLSV6q YFy.FCXz232vz.sYFCCJfG5VhmngKbcTUOXOYOZPkJSkmn.wrvAwMqsO00BT qd1wOwfjlaG2wzFzp_JDgVjtVVXeoebK_pmxbjnI_YqwYwaGScTKrGnswZ9a QAQGcfAF48D3SFgRgpZ_pEP3gMITSrOuid1z15zZOANGRWyTROu9DAsM2xqe C4T7KA9nxzdeA6VLky3A1waTmKr3DbU2iKAlQfQD2i4heOuZ9puNXA04SgV4 K_ErIwxidE1fuiyc7RpEHuJV5XfCrpCmekx4zDIvHOcu4QstcuaY9eQW8b36 fwHGMh2_qc4cImMoxVMTlQXGwc3CU0CR8HcXqJnscVkqGIZP32BCRmq6Ai3l .0zv88hfowfdFvzYEIF3ztZPAaYrXfvV12UmPWcg0HZHfYA4pQeFUHV27DM3 j3x12v8HpldY_1pClDLK.6U8_M72kARgcg9T01GaUsAcOS7aDBnCcYGSPNlZ d3JC52hpJnjfrdIgaRR2uOqWYDP5vGznELrDlDxWal3oQjah1V5K.ySKztKq .jeWvrxAFJXazl0dLSMB6cjxN7n6eh.By1M8Dr_6WyYfR5.h20M6CFMWatnp 44HqTNf86LQYlprE9vU8STgb55G5h X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- X-Rocket-Received: from [192.168.1.64] (kali9putra@99.92.108.194 with ) by smtp235.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Jul 2013 12:53:08 +0000 UTC Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: umami taste References: <57d7137b-09dd-459a-93af-a0c4c6d05a4b@googlegroups.com> <12f030eb-5a22-4539-b871-aadcd64dd27b@googlegroups.com> From: "John E. Clifford" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B206) In-Reply-To: <12f030eb-5a22-4539-b871-aadcd64dd27b@googlegroups.com> Message-Id: <6E555B0C-B7D2-40D2-A2EA-FCA262322A14@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 07:53:09 -0500 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.212.163 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-0B98073B-8AA5-4B40-AAFC-8CDC4CD81525 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Spam_score: 1.0 X-Spam_score_int: 10 X-Spam_bar: + X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: "Don we now our gay apparel, fa la la la la la al la la la,troll an ancient Yuletide carol," etc. Note that this has been a Xmas party song in the homosexual community for at least four decades. Sent from my iPad [...] Content analysis details: (1.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: dictionary.com] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (kali9putra[at]yahoo.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 'From' yahoo.com does not match 'Received' headers 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature --Apple-Mail-0B98073B-8AA5-4B40-AAFC-8CDC4CD81525 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 "Don we now our gay apparel, fa la la la la la al la la la,troll an ancient Yuletide carol," etc. Note that this has been a Xmas party song in the homosexual community for at least four decades. Sent from my iPad On Jul 27, 2013, at 7:41, la arxokuna wrote: > > > On Saturday, July 27, 2013 4:02:17 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote: > doi aionys, "gay" _does_ mean "homosexual". The first two definitions on dictionary.com support me. It also has a secondary meaning, but that meaning has fallen out of use in the US (I can't speak for other English speaking populations). > > Also, the meaning _is_ changed by the fact that most people associate "homosexual" with "gay" so much more strongly than they do "happy" that they get confused; this is natural _descriptivist_ evolution of language. > > Merriam Webster agrees with aionys. dictionary.com agrees with you. > But I rely on #lojban IRC chat. If nintadni are confused it's the problem of the gimste, not nintadni. > (btw, I've never seen "gay" used in the meaning of "merry" except in one song awkwardly translated into English 15 years ago). > > > > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 2:48 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > I'm just saying that the meaning isn't changed by the fact that idiots think gay means homosexual. > > > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:29 AM, la arxokuna wrote: > > > On Saturday, July 27, 2013 9:50:41 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > Except that "gay" still does mean what it did when the definition was written, so the meaning wasn't changed at all. > > The interpretation of the word "gay" in the U.S. has changed, but that's the fault of the populace. :) > > ke'u > I suggest this because we already have a registered incident on IRC when one nintadni thought that {gleki} covered the sense of {mitcinpa'i} as well. > This is NOT the problem of Lojban. This is only the problem of English changing. > > If "gay" no longer means "merry" (or it's almost never used in such sense nowadays) then the definition should be changed accordingly. > > > (And no one forbids you to translate gimste to "Old English" zo'o) > > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:59 PM, la arxokuna wrote: > > > On Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:20:42 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote: > Of course, "umami" can also be an adjective in English. All you have to do is use it that way. > > Unfortunately not all people know what is umami. So I added this awkward wording "has umami taste" to explicitly show what I'm talking about. > When more people learn about this word the *English* definition might be changed (without changing lojbani semantics). > > E.g. recently in bpfk-list I suggested changing the definition of {gleki} from > x1 is happy/merry/gay/glad/gleeful about x2 (event/state). > to > x1 is happy/merry/glad/gleeful about x2 (event/state). > > just because one English word completely changed it's meaning. > > > > stevo > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:16 PM, wrote: > There aren't gismu for all the accepted ground tastes? I'm surprised. > > krumami - x1 has an umami taste to observer x2. > titla - x1 is sweet/sugary/saccharine to observer x2. > slari - x1 is sour/tart to observer x2. > kurki - x1 is bitter/acrid/sharply disagreeable to observer/sense x2. > > So far so good. But then: > > silna - x1 is a portion/quantity of salt from source x2, of composition including x3. > > Surely a bare "silna" can't be good to use in this context since it actually refers to the physical salt (which is not clear, are we strictly speaking NaCl here or all salts - ionic compounds?). > > Good you added krumami. That is extremely welcomed by me. But, I would considering changing the definition to be more in line with the others. My proposal: > krumami - x1 is umami to observer x2. > > (...Ehm. You may ignore the above. I actually thought umami was an adjective as well in English, since that would be logical. Unfortunately, I can't find any proof of it.) > > Still. I miss the: > x1 is salty to observer x2 > > Am I missing something? > > mi'e la .gusek. mu'o > > Den tisdagen den 16:e juli 2013 kl. 09:54:06 UTC+2 skrev la arxokuna: > {krumami} > > x1 has umami taste to observer x2. > > Etymology: Romance [karo], Mandarin [rou4] ("meat"), Japanese [umami] > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --Apple-Mail-0B98073B-8AA5-4B40-AAFC-8CDC4CD81525 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
"Don we now our gay appar= el, fa la la la la la al la la la,troll an ancient Yuletide carol," etc.
Note that this has been a Xmas party song in the homosexual communi= ty for at least four decades.

Sent from my iPad

On Jul= 27, 2013, at 7:41, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

(btw, I've never seen "gay" used i= n the meaning of "merry" except in one song awkwardly translated into Engli= sh 15 years ago).
 


On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 2:48 = AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm just saying that the meaning isn't chang= ed by the fact that idiots think gay means homosexual.


On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:29 AM, l= a arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com>= wrote:


On Saturday, July 27, 2013 9:50= :41 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
Except that "gay" still does mean what it did when the definition was writt= en, so the meaning wasn't changed at all.

The interpretation = of the word "gay" in the U.S. has changed, but that's the fault of the popu= lace. :)

ke'u
I suggest this becaus= e we already have a registered incident on IRC when one nintadni thought th= at {gleki} covered the sense of {mitcinpa'i} as well.
This is NOT the problem of Lojban. This is only the problem of English chan= ging.

If "gay" no longer means "merry" (or it's al= most never used in such sense nowadays) then the definition should be chang= ed accordingly.


(And no one forbids you to translate gim= ste to "Old English" zo'o) 


On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:59 PM, la arxokuna= <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:20:42 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote:
Of course, "umami" can= also be an adjective in English. All you have to do is use it that way.&nb= sp;

Unfortunately not all people know wh= at is umami. So I added this awkward wording "has umami taste" to explicitl= y show what I'm talking about.
When more people learn about this = word the *English* definition might be changed (without changing lojbani se= mantics).

E.g. recently in bpfk-list I suggested changing the def= inition of {gleki} from
x1 is happy/merry/gay/glad/gleeful about = x2 (event/state).
to 
x1 is happy/merry/glad/g= leeful about x2 (event/state).

just because one English word completely changed = it's meaning.



stevo


On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <gunnar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
There aren't gismu for all the ac= cepted ground tastes? I'm surprised.

krumami - x1 has an umami taste= to observer x2.
titla - x1 is sweet/sugary/saccharine to observer x2.
slari - x1 is sour= /tart to observer x2.
kurki - x1 is bitter/acrid/sharply disagreeable to= observer/sense x2.

So far so good. But then:

silna - x1 is a= portion/quantity of salt from source x2, of composition including x3.

Surely a bare "silna" can't be good to use in this context since it act= ually refers to the physical salt (which is not clear, are we strictly spea= king NaCl here or all salts - ionic compounds?).

Good you added krumami. That is extremely welcomed by me. But, I wou= ld considering changing the definition to be more in line with the others. = My proposal:
krumami - x1 is umami to observer x2.

(...Ehm. You may ignore the ab= ove. I actually thought umami was an adjective as well in English, since th= at would be logical. Unfortunately, I can't find any proof of it.)

Still. I miss the:
x1 is salty to observer x2

Am I missing so= mething?

mi'e la .gusek. mu'o

Den tisdagen den 16:e juli 2013= kl. 09:54:06 UTC+2 skrev la arxokuna:
{krumami}

x1 has= umami taste to observer x2.

Etymology: Romanc= e [karo], Mandarin [rou4] ("meat"), Japanese [umami]

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.<= br> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt= _out.
 
 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 



--



--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 



--
mu'o mi'e .= arpis.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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