Received: from mail-gh0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]:33289) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1V349n-0002Hq-W4 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 06:03:47 -0700 Received: by mail-gh0-f189.google.com with SMTP id z13sf1200758ghb.26 for ; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 06:03:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:x-yahoo-newman-id:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-ymail-osg :x-yahoo-smtp:x-rocket-received:subject:references:from:x-mailer :in-reply-to:message-id:date:to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=xYqgeiToJ3XEReobsnHMISP11rlZocLs169t9ckB3rk=; b=R+9hLFKaq8K8PuCuyOWTkP0RQsfzGYaCR4l1hGDwrnbh7vvUMmpNAKvxO0FlCJfJl7 4vim21OogCBSMDcNT3gQ89mm8WF8sNzSIV6dJZ3Rwi6ypYhb9ZWRTtjK7M/wh5xkwkAw eJshgVdNA4oxZHmdofBGIIqwNmid9JD+1SCxfQtIIVzaALngpeavQy1s55Q1Or8sTZYr BB4C2HMrdk/BvQcLpln5KPxraFvb2Pm8PQliDvJ8ACWlME+e4wDV24K0wF8rz0FNXQI7 +r0rA1gjAFfIuVb17KaXI76Ect1O2tiYWehRzyhvCkPF7ljWNUHYYkXFTJAWSUFvnTde jHAg== X-Received: by 10.49.48.197 with SMTP id o5mr185524qen.31.1374930209387; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 06:03:29 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.49.73.193 with SMTP id n1ls377719qev.50.gmail; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 06:03:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.236.62.132 with SMTP id y4mr23001736yhc.13.1374930208986; Sat, 27 Jul 2013 06:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm14.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm14.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com. [98.138.90.77]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m65si9143432yhn.0.2013.07.27.06.03.28 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 27 Jul 2013 06:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.90.77 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.138.90.77; Received: from [98.138.90.53] by nm14.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jul 2013 13:03:28 -0000 Received: from [98.138.84.38] by tm6.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jul 2013 13:03:28 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jul 2013 13:03:28 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 232619.2582.bm@smtp106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: .5XEIw4VM1lQDm2RTclLhoJSUs7uUQJhRU6VrtWOil9fI81 dhdApeVl6AvelKidgSiAmCBByx1Gw7kVflhmYF_RkFDVWrrL8U_uuR__6Lcy o6sxBxdYsGgNoulWk1koB9l3qaUuIEPljV8fXIzCARDJjUt34NqbKGkfEgqH 7Lm0nuuOzQ460.uMQwnL1Bk9lDwJAhIsWft9l24exjNsQT0U8RvMmUuUoaYh .GwFscLNcGWipJEq6cc8xhlGXT1SA5PfqNXs7RtSumvcoRVv8NaF.hLeX6O9 NVPkD8nhU0_8655oAg_95lHCbXeOH91q30YfV_Ab2Mn7xXZC3oiEmCZXM737 Icb4wo6edV6X27gwcKpc.zi0pZm95p6yp4o5GTSEsBiF9UXV78qo6FN5tHMP hBL3IPx4tTmi.r9o1nDbJYFACA1qaV9tmxvTxPYyM37_gH24swVGoTKxjzQY e2VZOjTY5cKamHL.L6iw5wNJHrT05GCEnZDvKZn1XmfVaBEBF._wi59kTW6N lSLJiex_kXmoDV19vKCc0yrURSaxBAVrwyy9O2Ycw9wMjRQUzhZD7m1Ku6Oc bZ_8SLS4ddikJql59Ye_qAJ0fVk52AuYVNxfpVzLv0_.ktDMcI7GhaWOaMn1 aGqLYolMS30BmRShUob7wNyXIvgAZRtkbkcqXDCgZ2j4YfltN7vCokytA45A teElqpEnRoUM_QzrJo.Hjsg1HxhAwpIpncJnKRvp_cPNkNtzjm5siT5G_zT7 jS_nKF.wBuXgRHZ4cFwSOVb3wRBy3Zmx4tgNr3mXC1l9QV7R.2ztuD_z02ml kDnk6qTq9Z9Rn7BNejyF6BHq_TOsEN4ZdtU2FNs4JwDi1hvrEV1nDXKTTYYW feiufiXfNO1R6rW8ASdvxDQocoJlaWP3X X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- X-Rocket-Received: from [192.168.1.64] (kali9putra@99.92.108.194 with ) by smtp106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Jul 2013 06:03:28 -0700 PDT Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: umami taste References: <57d7137b-09dd-459a-93af-a0c4c6d05a4b@googlegroups.com> <12f030eb-5a22-4539-b871-aadcd64dd27b@googlegroups.com> <702FB038-7AEF-4A07-8E06-50446823DAC6@yahoo.com> From: "John E. Clifford" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B206) In-Reply-To: <702FB038-7AEF-4A07-8E06-50446823DAC6@yahoo.com> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 08:03:31 -0500 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.90.77 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-F7E33C9A-EAEA-4435-82E7-896D520B2B02 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Spam_score: 1.0 X-Spam_score_int: 10 X-Spam_bar: + X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: But then, "merry" meant that already in Shakespeare's time, Sent from my iPad On Jul 27, 2013, at 7:55, "John E. Clifford" wrote: [...] Content analysis details: (1.0 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (kali9putra[at]yahoo.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD 'From' yahoo.com does not match 'Received' headers 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: googlegroups.com] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature --Apple-Mail-F7E33C9A-EAEA-4435-82E7-896D520B2B02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 But then, "merry" meant that already in Shakespeare's time, Sent from my iPad On Jul 27, 2013, at 7:55, "John E. Clifford" wrote: > Oh, and "gay" has meant sexually liberated in a broad sense since at least the mid 1800s. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jul 27, 2013, at 7:41, la arxokuna wrote: > >> >> >> On Saturday, July 27, 2013 4:02:17 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote: >> doi aionys, "gay" _does_ mean "homosexual". The first two definitions on dictionary.com support me. It also has a secondary meaning, but that meaning has fallen out of use in the US (I can't speak for other English speaking populations). >> >> Also, the meaning _is_ changed by the fact that most people associate "homosexual" with "gay" so much more strongly than they do "happy" that they get confused; this is natural _descriptivist_ evolution of language. >> >> Merriam Webster agrees with aionys. dictionary.com agrees with you. >> But I rely on #lojban IRC chat. If nintadni are confused it's the problem of the gimste, not nintadni. >> (btw, I've never seen "gay" used in the meaning of "merry" except in one song awkwardly translated into English 15 years ago). >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 2:48 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> I'm just saying that the meaning isn't changed by the fact that idiots think gay means homosexual. >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:29 AM, la arxokuna wrote: >> >> >> On Saturday, July 27, 2013 9:50:41 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >> Except that "gay" still does mean what it did when the definition was written, so the meaning wasn't changed at all. >> >> The interpretation of the word "gay" in the U.S. has changed, but that's the fault of the populace. :) >> >> ke'u >> I suggest this because we already have a registered incident on IRC when one nintadni thought that {gleki} covered the sense of {mitcinpa'i} as well. >> This is NOT the problem of Lojban. This is only the problem of English changing. >> >> If "gay" no longer means "merry" (or it's almost never used in such sense nowadays) then the definition should be changed accordingly. >> >> >> (And no one forbids you to translate gimste to "Old English" zo'o) >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:59 PM, la arxokuna wrote: >> >> >> On Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:20:42 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote: >> Of course, "umami" can also be an adjective in English. All you have to do is use it that way. >> >> Unfortunately not all people know what is umami. So I added this awkward wording "has umami taste" to explicitly show what I'm talking about. >> When more people learn about this word the *English* definition might be changed (without changing lojbani semantics). >> >> E.g. recently in bpfk-list I suggested changing the definition of {gleki} from >> x1 is happy/merry/gay/glad/gleeful about x2 (event/state). >> to >> x1 is happy/merry/glad/gleeful about x2 (event/state). >> >> just because one English word completely changed it's meaning. >> >> >> >> stevo >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:16 PM, wrote: >> There aren't gismu for all the accepted ground tastes? I'm surprised. >> >> krumami - x1 has an umami taste to observer x2. >> titla - x1 is sweet/sugary/saccharine to observer x2. >> slari - x1 is sour/tart to observer x2. >> kurki - x1 is bitter/acrid/sharply disagreeable to observer/sense x2. >> >> So far so good. But then: >> >> silna - x1 is a portion/quantity of salt from source x2, of composition including x3. >> >> Surely a bare "silna" can't be good to use in this context since it actually refers to the physical salt (which is not clear, are we strictly speaking NaCl here or all salts - ionic compounds?). >> >> Good you added krumami. That is extremely welcomed by me. But, I would considering changing the definition to be more in line with the others. My proposal: >> krumami - x1 is umami to observer x2. >> >> (...Ehm. You may ignore the above. I actually thought umami was an adjective as well in English, since that would be logical. Unfortunately, I can't find any proof of it.) >> >> Still. I miss the: >> x1 is salty to observer x2 >> >> Am I missing something? >> >> mi'e la .gusek. mu'o >> >> Den tisdagen den 16:e juli 2013 kl. 09:54:06 UTC+2 skrev la arxokuna: >> {krumami} >> >> x1 has umami taste to observer x2. >> >> Etymology: Romance [karo], Mandarin [rou4] ("meat"), Japanese [umami] >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >> >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .arpis. >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. --Apple-Mail-F7E33C9A-EAEA-4435-82E7-896D520B2B02 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
But then, "merry" meant t= hat already in Shakespeare's time,

Sent from my iPad

O= n Jul 27, 2013, at 7:55, "John E. Clifford" <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

Oh, and "gay" has meant sexually liberate= d in a broad sense since at least the mid 1800s.

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 27, 2013, at 7:41, la arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

=


On Saturday, July 2= 7, 2013 4:02:17 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote:
doi aionys, "gay" _does_ mean "homosexual". The = first two definitions on dictionary.com support me. It also has a secondary meaning, but that = meaning has fallen out of use in the US (I can't speak for other English sp= eaking populations).

Also, the meaning _is_ changed by the fact that most people associate "= homosexual" with "gay" so much more strongly than they do "happy" that they= get confused; this is natural _descriptivist_ evolution of language.

Merriam Webster agrees with aionys. dictionary.com agrees with you.
But I rely on #lojban IRC chat. If nintadni are confused it's the proble= m of the gimste, not nintadni.
(btw, I've never seen "gay" used i= n the meaning of "merry" except in one song awkwardly translated into Engli= sh 15 years ago).
 


On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 2:48 = AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm just saying that the meaning isn't chang= ed by the fact that idiots think gay means homosexual.


On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:29 AM, l= a arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com>= wrote:


On Saturday, July 27, 2013 9:50= :41 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
Except that "gay" still does mean what it did when the definition was writt= en, so the meaning wasn't changed at all.

The interpretation = of the word "gay" in the U.S. has changed, but that's the fault of the popu= lace. :)

ke'u
I suggest this becaus= e we already have a registered incident on IRC when one nintadni thought th= at {gleki} covered the sense of {mitcinpa'i} as well.
This is NOT the problem of Lojban. This is only the problem of English chan= ging.

If "gay" no longer means "merry" (or it's al= most never used in such sense nowadays) then the definition should be chang= ed accordingly.


(And no one forbids you to translate gim= ste to "Old English" zo'o) 


On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 9:59 PM, la arxokuna= <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Saturday, July 27, 2013 12:20:42 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote:
Of course, "umami" can= also be an adjective in English. All you have to do is use it that way.&nb= sp;

Unfortunately not all people know wh= at is umami. So I added this awkward wording "has umami taste" to explicitl= y show what I'm talking about.
When more people learn about this = word the *English* definition might be changed (without changing lojbani se= mantics).

E.g. recently in bpfk-list I suggested changing the def= inition of {gleki} from
x1 is happy/merry/gay/glad/gleeful about = x2 (event/state).
to 
x1 is happy/merry/glad/g= leeful about x2 (event/state).

just because one English word completely changed = it's meaning.



stevo


On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:16 PM, <gunnar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
There aren't gismu for all the ac= cepted ground tastes? I'm surprised.

krumami - x1 has an umami taste= to observer x2.
titla - x1 is sweet/sugary/saccharine to observer x2.
slari - x1 is sour= /tart to observer x2.
kurki - x1 is bitter/acrid/sharply disagreeable to= observer/sense x2.

So far so good. But then:

silna - x1 is a= portion/quantity of salt from source x2, of composition including x3.

Surely a bare "silna" can't be good to use in this context since it act= ually refers to the physical salt (which is not clear, are we strictly spea= king NaCl here or all salts - ionic compounds?).

Good you added krumami. That is extremely welcomed by me. But, I wou= ld considering changing the definition to be more in line with the others. = My proposal:
krumami - x1 is umami to observer x2.

(...Ehm. You may ignore the ab= ove. I actually thought umami was an adjective as well in English, since th= at would be logical. Unfortunately, I can't find any proof of it.)

Still. I miss the:
x1 is salty to observer x2

Am I missing so= mething?

mi'e la .gusek. mu'o

Den tisdagen den 16:e juli 2013= kl. 09:54:06 UTC+2 skrev la arxokuna:
{krumami}

x1 has= umami taste to observer x2.

Etymology: Romanc= e [karo], Mandarin [rou4] ("meat"), Japanese [umami]

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.<= br> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt= _out.
 
 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 



--



--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 



--
mu'o mi'e .= arpis.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 
--Apple-Mail-F7E33C9A-EAEA-4435-82E7-896D520B2B02--